Economy 7 and ending of RTS (Radio Teleswitch Service)

SusanPerb

Pixie_Cosmo said:

...I'm in the lucky position of having two E7 slots per day - 4 hours overnight and 3 in the afternoon...

You are presumably on one of Scottish Power's two "TwinHeat" tariffs. (These are still available - anybody interested can do a web search for "Scottish Power electric heating option tables".)

We use TwinHeat. It is functionality identical to Economy 7 other than the timings: a single two-rate meter for the entire installation, plus a switched supply for storage heaters. It should therefore be straightforward to provide via a smart meter.

We have not been able to have a smart meter due to lack of mobile signal. However, we had an installer visit to fit an isolator over a year ago who said he had fitted smart meters for many other TwinHeat installations previously. 

You will inevitably struggle to get any sensible answer from Scottish Power's woeful customer service. However it appears that on the ground they are setup to provision TwinHeat via a smart meter. 

So, if you can get a smart meter you're probably fine. Meanwhile, if anybody has hints on how those of us unable to get smart meters can get a sensible response from the Scottish Power bureaucracy, it'd be much appreciated...!


(Factoid: TwinHeat was originally introduced as "Menter" just around Aberystwyth in the early 1990s and was a tactical response to the strain that high Economy 7 heating loads were putting on the Mid Wales electricity distribution network. It spread out demand better by splitting homes in the area across two different off peak cycles. It's amazing it's still going, tbh!)

QrizB

Thanks @SusanPerb, that's the first I've heard of TwinHeat but it explains the meter timings nicely!

Ildhund

I'm not at all certain, but I think the _GSP borders largely coincide with the DNO areas (it may be a bit woolly in Scotland, where the setup is particularly incestuous). You may find _GSP codes used in some places instead of the area ID, especially where settlement is concerned, so I think I'll add them to the map. You might want to update your bookmark 

SSCs are as far as I'm aware vital to the configuration of multi-rate smart meters, i.e. those in Profile Class 02. Many of them are supplier-specific. It's great fun creating DB queries to work out, say, the switching times for a SMETS2 meter for an OVO customer on Economy 10 in Northern Scotland given his MPAN. The data tables are all available on the Elexon BSC portal. Until everyone is submitting Hh data, and every supplier has worked out how to configure ToU matrices and ALCSs dynamically, I think SSCs will be needed for both customer billing and settlement between suppliers and distributors.

Rosie1001

I’m in south Tyneside , my timings are different to what the graph says 

5 hours overnight , 2 hours afternoon 

I was originally northern electric , then n power 

Pixie_Cosmo

SusanPerb said:

Pixie_Cosmo said:

...I'm in the lucky position of having two E7 slots per day - 4 hours overnight and 3 in the afternoon...

You are presumably on one of Scottish Power's two "TwinHeat" tariffs. (These are still available - anybody interested can do a web search for "Scottish Power electric heating option tables".)

We use TwinHeat. It is functionality identical to Economy 7 other than the timings: a single two-rate meter for the entire installation, plus a switched supply for storage heaters. It should therefore be straightforward to provide via a smart meter.

We have not been able to have a smart meter due to lack of mobile signal. However, we had an installer visit to fit an isolator over a year ago who said he had fitted smart meters for many other TwinHeat installations previously. 

You will inevitably struggle to get any sensible answer from Scottish Power's woeful customer service. However it appears that on the ground they are setup to provision TwinHeat via a smart meter. 

So, if you can get a smart meter you're probably fine. Meanwhile, if anybody has hints on how those of us unable to get smart meters can get a sensible response from the Scottish Power bureaucracy, it'd be much appreciated...!


(Factoid: TwinHeat was originally introduced as "Menter" just around Aberystwyth in the early 1990s and was a tactical response to the strain that high Economy 7 heating loads were putting on the Mid Wales electricity distribution network. It spread out demand better by splitting homes in the area across two different off peak cycles. It's amazing it's still going, tbh!)

Thank you @susanperb, that's a really helpful answer! I am rural Mid Wales based and a lot of people don't have mains gas round here so have storage heaters. At least I know what to ask for and research now. Fingers crossed I can still get my useful off peak times when I have to get a SM installed. Good luck with Scottish Power...

Pixie_Cosmo

Well, to update, I got my SM fittted. And guess what... no TwinHeat, just overnight.

I've complained to SP, having been told I would keep my TwinHeat times. I asked the installer who said I should keep my times, and that it would be easy for SP to change the rate timings via the SM. See what happens now! 

The installer also didn't think the switch off would happen in June, as there are still 400,000 people using RTS teleswitches. I should have held out really :-(

matelodave

The system has been due to be switched off as the RTS service is on borrowed time because the last transmitter valves are well past their end of life service time and there are no replacements available anywhere.

The idea of having a planned service switch off is to ensure that as many people as possible get switched over in an orderly fashion, just in case or before the system fails and leaves lots of people in the lurch. Relying on it not happening could leave you with a problem. 

I guess a lot depends on how your system is configured and what sort of meter RTS system is installed as to how it might respond to a failure of the RTS signal.

The best is where the meter has its own clock and just doesn't notice, so you get off-peak leccy and auto switchover controlled by the meter

However if the system was totally reliant on the RTS to switch, then the meter or switch could respond in different ways.
It could stay where it was if it doesn't receive a signal, in which case you could end up with the heating and hot water permanently on if it fails to switch to peak rate.
Alternatively if it fails to switch to off-peak or some other rate then you may end up with no heating or hot water or you could end up with everything defaulting to peak rate. Which is probably not ideal if you have storage heaters flogging away day and night.

I suspect that there will be a lot of angry people if it does fail prematurely, and they have to wait several months to get their heating and hot water back because they left it too late and then expect the energy companies to be able to react even when they've been warned.
Probably not a disaster in the summer but not much fun if it drags on and fails in December.

Scot_39

Even if the RTS signal hardware does survive - wasn't their a post several weeks ago with quotes from Ofgem - basically taking about allowing the suppliers to switch the legacy RTS tariffs off come July 1st anyway (reverting I guess to SR if not gone smart was also implied by a few other users - for RTS or electromechanical switches - or was that only for refusal to upgrade) ?

I should have bookmarked the post - as struggle with searching forum for some reason.

But their was certainly a proposal at one stage to do so - and unless Ofgem / Elexon extend the deadline and payment method - even if hardware works - the system might not be provided.

w

Ah found one worrying reference for those not yet upgraded - as reported here by @ldhund in Feb post

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81285683/#Comment_81285683

"the licensee cannot supply electricity to premises that rely on RTS technology"

Not sure what happened in the end - but it's probably a far harder line than Ofgem took in the past 3m out from past deadlines as it were.

PHMAL

My MP tells me Ofgem have confirmed nobody will be cut off from having electricity. if their RTS meter hasn't been replaced. The signal will not just totally be shut off on 30 June, but there will be s 'phased' shut down up until Seprmber. Given the seriousmess of the situation, Ofgem, the Government and the BBC should be looking to keep the current system going as long as possible. I think the energy companies have been doing their best to fit new meters, but it's probably a lot of very scared customers who've been holding thigs up. I'm not sure how much Ofgem are to blame, but they don't have the best of reputations....

mmmmikey

PHMAL said:

My MP tells me Ofgem have confirmed nobody will be cut off from having electricity. if their RTS meter hasn't been replaced. The signal will not just totally be shut off on 30 June, but there will be s 'phased' shut down up until Seprmber. Given the seriousmess of the situation, Ofgem, the Government and the BBC should be looking to keep the current system going as long as possible. I think the energy companies have been doing their best to fit new meters, but it's probably a lot of very scared customers who've been holding thigs up. I'm not sure how much Ofgem are to blame, but they don't have the best of reputations....

Hi - I don't think there's ever been a suggestion that customers will be cut off, it's more a question of how much it costs them if they lose access to their current tariff if that tariff depends on the meter picking up RTS switching to work. Better, in my view, just to bite the bullet and stick with the plan to shut this down in a phased way starting in June and ending in September. You can only give people one last chance so many times before that becomes meaningless.