Why do you think your energy bill is higher than the national average?

ariarnia

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ariarnia said:

markin said:

ariarnia said:

Deleted_User said:

ariarnia said:

mar7t1n said:

I despair when I hear people say we'll have to stop using the tumble drying, or we need to cut back. Surely the summer is the time to save, and prep for the winter. Why is average household energy consumption so high?

do you honestly not understand that EVERYTHING has gotten more expensive. not just electric? food, transport, energy, clothes, council tax, water rates, internet. i can't think of a single one of our bills that hasn't gone up in the last year. 

people on an income which means a year ago they could comfortably manage their lifestyle and outgoings are now struggling. that means they need to cut back where they can even if they don't use more than the average. 

I don't despair when people say sensible things like "can we cut back" or "maybe I'll use X a little less".  I do when there are stories about people planning to sit in the dark because they've misunderstood how little it actually costs to run a lightbulb.

i know a couple who are planning on going to bed early sot he lights/heating aren't on and who have removed bulbs. these are people who are already low energy users and have already cut back much further than we have. 

yes those things won't make a big difference but they're worried and scared about rising prices and taking half the bulbs out of a mains light fitting or using a side lamp rather than the 'big' lamp makes them feel like they're doing something. you might despair but if doing those things makes them feel some control over a hugely uncontrollable situation then it's not pointless. 

Taking 3 out of 6 bulbs out of a chandelier is sensible, But the are many posts saying they will sit in the Dark, Or use candles that will actually cost far more!

if they already have a candle stash (lots of people do) then there's no extra cost in using the candles they already have. or if they have 50 to spend now on candles then they can buy them now and they're not worrying about what the bill will be in the future or about possible power cuts then that not worrying is also worth something. or going to bed rather than turning on lights.

like i said the feeling that you are doing something and have some control might not have monetary value but that doesn't mean they're doing something because they're too stupid to realise the cost of turning on a lightbulb. people do things all the time that might result in being more expensive or not needed in the long run but give them peace of mind in the meantime. 

I understand this, but how far does that peace of mind go when they find out their bills are still just as high?  How far does it go when they're miserable and not making any real difference?  Much better to be making actually useful changes.  I've certainly felt reassured to know that LEDs are the cheapest solution for lighting, how little they cost even on the darkest days.  And I feel much more in control being able to make informed decisions that I know will.make a difference, than making decisions based on ignorance or myth.

Yes candles can be useful for power cuts but torches (especially wind-up - free energy) or the LED torch on one's phone (even better with a precharged power bank just in case) are much better.  That spare £50 would be better spent than on candles.

i'm not sure what you mean. its not ignorance just because they're making a different decision to you. 

yes lightbulbs don't cost much but they do cost. so the bill will be lower than if the lights were on (even if not much lower). a single 13 watt bulb not turned on for an hour will save 0.013 kwhs. three bulbs not on for an hour a day for a month and that's a kwh saved. 10+ bulbs in the house and for more than an hour over the 3/4 months of winter and it could even pay for a treat while out and about. that's assuming they have LED bulbs and fittings don't have to go out to buy them.  

and i'm taking about a couple who has already made all of the 'reasonable' useful cuts they can so reducing the amount of time they have the lights on is something they can do. if they are early risers i'm not sure how going to bed earlier would make them 'miserable'  

i think you don't understand the idea of a candle stash? i've got hundreds of tea lights. probably at least a hundred or so candles for in candle sticks. then there's ornamental candles in every room. these aren't candles i've just gone out this winter to buy. some of these candles are probably older than my children! burning those for a few evenings/powercuts would cost me nothing. going out and buying touches specially would cost out of pocket money now.

wind up is great if you can wind them and don't want to use them for a long time. rechargeable batteries and a charger or power bank is great unless part of your worry is leaving things plugged in or charging things that you're then not going to use (wasted electricity). power banks the same great but now the things your suggesting are adding up to a lot more than the cost of the candles and the candles are less likely to not be charged/working when you need them (remembering this is about helping with any anxiety)

I can afford to buy rechargeable batteries and torches (and have done that) and I also have candles and matches (belt and braces) but someone else making other decision is not making those decisions based on ignorance or myth. they're making a decision that's right for them in their circumstances given their own concerns about the next few months and what makes them feel more in control. 

[Deleted User]

You’re building yourself up over a straw man argument. Nobody has said that this couple you know shouldn’t be cutting back if they wish to and it is an informed decision. That’s fine, they are adults and can do as they like.

My point was that I despair of the repeated headlines saying so-and-so will be sitting in the dark because nobody can afford energy. You yourself even point out that having an LED side light on for many hours over the whole of winter is going to cost a few pounds.

BooJewels

I've recently just done this exercise for myself, as I've installed a lot of Smart plugs to replace the many timers I use for lighting - as they're plugged in in difficult to reach places and it's a slog twice a year to adjust them, or when the nights draw in etc.  The smart plugs are intended for my convenience, not money saving, although I think they probably will save a bit. I've already had my money's worth in the ease with which I could set up a holiday routine recently and the sheer amusement an improved functionality of them.

But because I can now switch off lights that I can't reach, I've been using the phone app like a remote control for my lights and putting them on and off when I don't actually need them if I'm elsewhere in the house, or go out.  And whilst it feels more like I'm doing something, the actual saving will be modest, as they're all low energy LEDs.  If I save 15 watt hours for 8 hours in total in any day - that's £1.22/month - less than 15 quid a year. So it's quite a bit of effort and thought for a modest saving.  I saved more than that defrosting my freezer.

ariarnia

Deleted_User said:

You’re building yourself up over a straw man argument. Nobody has said that this couple you know shouldn’t be cutting back if they wish to and it is an informed decision. That’s fine, they are adults and can do as they like.

My point was that I despair of the repeated headlines saying so-and-so will be sitting in the dark because nobody can afford energy. You yourself even point out that having an LED side light on for many hours over the whole of winter is going to cost a few pounds.

no i'm not. several people have said those who decide to cut back or are doing things they think are pointless are doing so because they don't understand how cheap lightbulbs are to run or that they're been taken in by myth and ignorance. that's patronising. the same as the OP suggesting someone using a tumble dryer or having the heating on all year is wasting energy. yes some might be both others will be behaving the way that works for their health family or building. 

lots of people DO understand but are still deciding the very small returns are worth the savings to them or are doing things that might prove to be more expensive in the long run because they feel better actually doing something or it's mitigating a small bit not 0 risk that they're worrying about. while I and OH think unplanned blackouts are very unlikely we still got MIL a camping stove because having something she will likely never use means she isnt worrying she won't be able to boil water in the middle of winter. that's worth the £30 the stove cost (and likely if we take the kids camping in the summer we'll borrow it back!). 

that's the same as when people on here advise posters to take a longer energy/morgage fix that might prove more expensive if it gives peace of mind. peace of mind has value. 

Spoonie_Turtle

ariarnia said:
peace of mind has value. 

It does.  It won't pay the bills if people aren't making other real inroads with their usage, but yes peace of mind has value. 
To be perfectly honest peace of mind is why we made the tariff decision we did before the government support was announced, and is why we're paying more than we strictly need to, sitting tight waiting for more information from our supplier before making any further decisions.

ariarnia

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ariarnia said:
peace of mind has value. 

It does.  It won't pay the bills if people aren't making other real inroads with their usage, but yes peace of mind has value. 
To be perfectly honest peace of mind is why we made the tariff decision we did before the government support was announced, and is why we're paying more than we strictly need to, sitting tight waiting for more information from our supplier before making any further decisions.

what else could they do that they are not already doing to save money on their bills? you have no idea because you don't know what they are doing but you feel free to say they've been taken in by ignorance and myths. the same as others and the OP who decide someone suing above average or uses a tumble dryer or has the heating on all year is wasting energy even though you have no idea as to their situation and if not doing those things would actually be a good idea for them or not. again i say that's just judgemental and patronising. people do things for lots of reasons and sometimes changes can be made but just because someone does something that would be stupid or damaging for you doesn't mean its stupid or damaging for them. 

[Deleted User]

ariarnia said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ariarnia said:
peace of mind has value. 

It does.  It won't pay the bills if people aren't making other real inroads with their usage, but yes peace of mind has value. 
To be perfectly honest peace of mind is why we made the tariff decision we did before the government support was announced, and is why we're paying more than we strictly need to, sitting tight waiting for more information from our supplier before making any further decisions.

what else could they do that they are not already doing to save money on their bills? you have no idea because you don't know what they are doing but you feel free to say they've been taken in by ignorance and myths. the same as others and the OP who decide someone suing above average or uses a tumble dryer or has the heating on all year is wasting energy even though you have no idea as to their situation and if not doing those things would actually be a good idea for them or not. again i say that's just judgemental and patronising. people do things for lots of reasons and sometimes changes can be made but just because someone does something that would be stupid or damaging for you doesn't mean its stupid or damaging for them. 

Who said they should be doing something else?  Who said it was stupid or damaging?

Spoonie directly agreed with the point you made!

You're trying to make an argument here that nobody else is having.

ariarnia

Deleted_User said:

ariarnia said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ariarnia said:
peace of mind has value. 

It does.  It won't pay the bills if people aren't making other real inroads with their usage, but yes peace of mind has value. 
To be perfectly honest peace of mind is why we made the tariff decision we did before the government support was announced, and is why we're paying more than we strictly need to, sitting tight waiting for more information from our supplier before making any further decisions.

what else could they do that they are not already doing to save money on their bills? you have no idea because you don't know what they are doing but you feel free to say they've been taken in by ignorance and myths. the same as others and the OP who decide someone suing above average or uses a tumble dryer or has the heating on all year is wasting energy even though you have no idea as to their situation and if not doing those things would actually be a good idea for them or not. again i say that's just judgemental and patronising. people do things for lots of reasons and sometimes changes can be made but just because someone does something that would be stupid or damaging for you doesn't mean its stupid or damaging for them. 

Who said they should be doing something else?  Who said it was stupid or damaging?

Spoonie directly agreed with the point you made!

You're trying to make an argument here that nobody else is having.

i';m not trying to have an argument i'm saying that posts like the one below are judgemental and ignore that different choices can be perfectly valid for different people in different situations and that my friends decision to go to bed/get up early to save on lighting and heating might not be right for others but is right for them. NOT based on insulting suggestions they're ignorant or too stupid to understand the cost of running a lightbulb or if these changes would make them miserable. 


I understand this, but how far does that peace of mind go when they find out their bills are still just as high?  How far does it go when they're miserable and not making any real difference?  Much better to be making actually useful changes.  I've certainly felt reassured to know that LEDs are the cheapest solution for lighting, how little they cost even on the darkest days.  And I feel much more in control being able to make informed decisions that I know will.make a difference, than making decisions based on ignorance or myth.

Spoonie_Turtle

ariarnia said:

Deleted_User said:

ariarnia said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ariarnia said:
peace of mind has value. 

It does.  It won't pay the bills if people aren't making other real inroads with their usage, but yes peace of mind has value. 
To be perfectly honest peace of mind is why we made the tariff decision we did before the government support was announced, and is why we're paying more than we strictly need to, sitting tight waiting for more information from our supplier before making any further decisions.

what else could they do that they are not already doing to save money on their bills? you have no idea because you don't know what they are doing but you feel free to say they've been taken in by ignorance and myths. the same as others and the OP who decide someone suing above average or uses a tumble dryer or has the heating on all year is wasting energy even though you have no idea as to their situation and if not doing those things would actually be a good idea for them or not. again i say that's just judgemental and patronising. people do things for lots of reasons and sometimes changes can be made but just because someone does something that would be stupid or damaging for you doesn't mean its stupid or damaging for them. 

Who said they should be doing something else?  Who said it was stupid or damaging?

Spoonie directly agreed with the point you made!

You're trying to make an argument here that nobody else is having.

i';m not trying to have an argument i'm saying that posts like the one below are judgemental and ignore that different choices can be perfectly valid for different people in different situations and that my friends decision to go to bed/get up early to save on lighting and heating might not be right for others but is right for them. NOT based on insulting suggestions they're ignorant or too stupid to understand the cost of running a lightbulb or if these changes would make them miserable. 

I owe you an apology - your first comment about the couple did say they'd already cut back and that didn't register with me.  So I'm sorry I didn't catch that at first. 

I also meant no insult by assuming their decision about light bulbs was based on flawed information/understanding.  Not having a full or correct understanding is no reflection on a person's character, neither is unintentional ignorance* - misinformation can very easily make people feel informed so they see no reason to dig further, thus they remain ignorant of the facts.  (Incidentally intelligence also is no reflection of someone's character either.)

*not meant as an insult in any way, simply a neutral descriptor.  It only becomes a reflection of someone if they willfully remain ignorant, or if it's malicious in order to hurt others.

It's like the misinformation around benefits, in many ways.  There's no value judgement in not knowing everything, or even not knowing anything until they have any need to.  Now people do need to have a decent understanding of their energy use, and because it's such a hot topic there's loads of misinformation, or partial information without context - e.g. a recent tabloid ran an article about how overnight electricity is cheaper, and didn't make it clear that's only for multi-rate tariffs.  It's no wonder people get confused.  Plus with light bulbs, incandescent ones did cost a lot to run, so when the advice started it did make an appreciable difference.  So people remember that and maybe don't know that LEDs use ~10% of the energy (or less) that incandescent ones used.  Again like with benefits, the reality does stink and people ARE suffering and will struggle (heck I do know far too many people still won't be able to afford to have the heating on, the reality for the very worst off really is grim), but misinformation leads people to make different decisions from what they would have made with full, accurate information.  And usually those decisions end up being to their detriment.

And as a final point, most people I know would indeed feel miserable if they felt they had to be in the cold and dark over winter.  It's one thing going to bed early because you want to, it's entirely another feeling like you have no other choice and are forced into it by external factors beyond your control.  It would be even worse to later find out actually you didn't necessarily have to do that.

mar7t1n

We always wash our hands using the hot tap, despite it not actually getting hot before we're finished

During September I did an experiment to limit the amount of hot water wasted. Which involved using the cold tap to wash hands. I also switched from rinsing dishes in hot water to doing it in cold. This has resulted in using 80kwh less gas during the month. A small saving of around £8/month at the latest prices. It is hardly worth worrying about in reality but the fact that I do means I can afford to put the heating on for a day longer - although I haven't given in yet.