Seller is not the registered proprietor - can I still become the registered proprietor if I buy?

Nemo_Nunya

I've noticed a few properties for sale where the seller has recently completed on a property and then they are quickly selling it (presumably for a profit). The property doesn't show the seller as the registered proprietor so I just want to know what happens if I buy the property.

I can show the Land Registry:
1) The completed transfer from the registered proprietor to the seller.
2) The completed transfer from the seller to me.
3) My stamp duty certificate for the purchase.

Can I become the registered proprietor with these documents? 

Will there be an issue for me if I'm unable produce the stamp duty certificate for the seller's purchase?

@Land_Registry

knightstyle

Check if you can get a mortgage on a house sold recently. Lenders often do not lend unless the property was last sold over 6 months before.

Land_Registry

See Practice Guide 21 section 2 re sales and sub sales which explains the registration requirements 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/using-transfer-forms-for-less-straightforward-transactions/practice-guide-21-using-our-forms-for-complex-and-more-unusual-transactions#sales-and-sub-sales

Nemo_Nunya

knightstyle said:

Check if you can get a mortgage on a house sold recently. Lenders often do not lend unless the property was last sold over 6 months before.

Thanks for the response. I believe this is sometimes referred to as 'the 6 month rule'. For simplicity sake, we can assume that the above example will be a cash purchase.

Land_Registry said:

See Practice Guide 21 section 2 re sales and sub sales which explains the registration requirements 
<link>

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure what I described in the opening post is actually a sub-sale. I believe sub-sales relate to pre-completion transfers. I'm talking about a situation where completion between the registered proprietor and seller has already happened. And then after that completion, the seller sells the property to me.

Does the above practice guidance still relate in this instance? @Land_Registry

user1977

Hopefully you're employing somebody qualified to do the conveyancing on your behalf, so they will deal with the technicalities of registration. There's no fundamental problem with the principle of such transactions, the main issue (as already mentioned) is that mortgage lenders shy away from them.

Nemo_Nunya

user1977 said:

Hopefully you're employing somebody qualified to do the conveyancing on your behalf, so they will deal with the technicalities of registration. There's no fundamental problem with the principle of such transactions, the main issue (as already mentioned) is that mortgage lenders shy away from them.

It was mentioned that we can treat the above as a cash purchase so mortgage lenders is not really a concern here.

Tiglet2

Nemo_Nunya said:

I've noticed a few properties for sale where the seller has recently completed on a property and then they are quickly selling it (presumably for a profit). The property doesn't show the seller as the registered proprietor so I just want to know what happens if I buy the property.

I can show the Land Registry:
1) The completed transfer from the registered proprietor to the seller.
2) The completed transfer from the seller to me.
3) My stamp duty certificate for the purchase.

Can I become the registered proprietor with these documents? 

Will there be an issue for me if I'm unable produce the stamp duty certificate for the seller's purchase?

@Land_Registry

If you are instructing a solicitor to act on your behalf for the purchase of this property, they will probably insist that the title register is updated to show the seller as the registered proprietor, before they will agree to exchange and set a completion date.  It is less work for them for the title to be updated in advance of exchange and completion.

If they do agree to complete before the seller is named as the registered proprietor, the evidence (the completed transfers for example) and an Undertaking from the seller's solicitor to assist with any requisitions the Land Registry raise, will need to be satisfactory and acceptable by your solicitor before they agree to do the additional work with Land Registry to transfer the title from original named seller to you.  They are very likely to add some fees to your bill for this additional work.

user1977

Tiglet2 said:

Nemo_Nunya said:

I've noticed a few properties for sale where the seller has recently completed on a property and then they are quickly selling it (presumably for a profit). The property doesn't show the seller as the registered proprietor so I just want to know what happens if I buy the property.

I can show the Land Registry:
1) The completed transfer from the registered proprietor to the seller.
2) The completed transfer from the seller to me.
3) My stamp duty certificate for the purchase.

Can I become the registered proprietor with these documents? 

Will there be an issue for me if I'm unable produce the stamp duty certificate for the seller's purchase?

@Land_Registry

If you are instructing a solicitor to act on your behalf for the purchase of this property, they will probably insist that the title register is updated to show the seller as the registered proprietor, before they will agree to exchange and set a completion date.  It is less work for them for the title to be updated in advance of exchange and completion.

If they do agree to complete before the seller is named as the registered proprietor, the evidence (the completed transfers for example) and an Undertaking from the seller's solicitor to assist with any requisitions the Land Registry raise, will need to be satisfactory and acceptable by your solicitor before they agree to do the additional work with Land Registry to transfer the title from original named seller to you. 

In my experience such properties tend to be found at auction (would help if the OP could confirm), in which case none of the above negotiation is really feasible, the buyer just takes it or leaves it.

jj_43

I purchased in a similar situation. For my own comfort I personally contacted the then current registered proprietor, went to their house and confirmed they had sold the property to the current seller. They also confirm the solicitor their buyer had used was the same as my current seller. I considered this important for the identity checks undertaken by solicitors.

Land_Registry

Nemo_Nunya said:

knightstyle said:

Check if you can get a mortgage on a house sold recently. Lenders often do not lend unless the property was last sold over 6 months before.

Thanks for the response. I believe this is sometimes referred to as 'the 6 month rule'. For simplicity sake, we can assume that the above example will be a cash purchase.

Land_Registry said:

See Practice Guide 21 section 2 re sales and sub sales which explains the registration requirements 
<link>

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure what I described in the opening post is actually a sub-sale. I believe sub-sales relate to pre-completion transfers. I'm talking about a situation where completion between the registered proprietor and seller has already happened. And then after that completion, the seller sells the property to me.

Does the above practice guidance still relate in this instance? @Land_Registry

You’ve got two sales and two purchases. So you have a sub-sale as the second purchaser for want of a better term. Both have to complete and both have to be registered so the registration requirements are as explained 
So you can become the registered owner but you’d be wise to follow the advice of your solicitor or others as appropriate - it reads more like a ‘should I?’ than a ‘Can I?’ 

Nemo_Nunya

Land_Registry said:

Nemo_Nunya said:

knightstyle said:

Check if you can get a mortgage on a house sold recently. Lenders often do not lend unless the property was last sold over 6 months before.

Thanks for the response. I believe this is sometimes referred to as 'the 6 month rule'. For simplicity sake, we can assume that the above example will be a cash purchase.

Land_Registry said:

See Practice Guide 21 section 2 re sales and sub sales which explains the registration requirements 
<link>

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure what I described in the opening post is actually a sub-sale. I believe sub-sales relate to pre-completion transfers. I'm talking about a situation where completion between the registered proprietor and seller has already happened. And then after that completion, the seller sells the property to me.

Does the above practice guidance still relate in this instance? @Land_Registry

You’ve got two sales and two purchases. So you have a sub-sale as the second purchaser for want of a better term. Both have to complete and both have to be registered so the registration requirements are as explained 
So you can become the registered owner but you’d be wise to follow the advice of your solicitor or others as appropriate - it reads more like a ‘should I?’ than a ‘Can I?’ 

This is not a sub-sale. In order for this to be a sub-sale, the main sale and sub-sale have to complete at the same time. I will illustrate this below:

The Registry shows A as the registered proprietor. 
A exchange contracts with B (main sale)
B exchange contracts with C (sub-sale)
And then the A to B transfer and B to C transfer complete at the same time.

^^This is not what I am asking about.^^

Sub-sales (or pre-completion transfers) have special rules which I have read and understood. In a sub-sale, if C goes to register the property in their name, the Land Registry doesn't need to see B's stamp duty certificate.

I am asking about a situation like this:

The Registry shows A as the registered proprietor.
A exchange contracts with B.
A to B transfer completes.
(A few days/weeks later...)
The Registry still shows A as the registered proprietor.
B exchange contracts with C.
B to C transfer completes.

In this scenario, if C goes to register the property in their name, does the Land Registry need to see B's stamp duty certificate?

I am not trying to circumvent the advice of a competent solicitor. I am just trying to find clarification on this point.

@Land_Registry