Debt Letters Left By Previous Tenant

Alderbank

Yes.

1. If no tenancy agreement (so the owner has full use and control of the property) the owner is liable for fuel bills.
2. If a tenancy agreement (so the tenant has quiet enjoyment of the property) the tenant is liable for the duration of the tenancy unless the signed tenancy agreement says the landlord will pay instead.

The tenant could sue the landlord but in the absence of any supporting evidence the claim might not succeed.

MisterMotivated

Ath_Wat said:

TripleH said:

I had assumed from the comments that the Op was not charging the tenant for the bills but that it was the supplier direct (the Op only referred to rent).

The point is how does the power company know that?  The bills were in the name owner/occupier, didn't change when they are being told this tenant took over, and they have never ever heard of the person he claims was the tenant.  Where's the proof that the tenant exists or ever had any responsibility to pay the bills?

Can they take someone to court for unpaid bills just because the OP claims they were responsible?

A lot of the thread suggests the tenant never had an account with Shell, but the post below seems to contradict this.

wolvesbruza said:

From what Shell told me the bill ran from September 2021 to May 22. In that time...

The ex partner moved out September due to a legal situation arising from their relationship - Although he was on the tenancy agreement until end of December. Shell say he was liable for that portion of the bill for that period.

From January to May the previous tenant is liable according to Shell. However with no forwarding address or what looks like clear appetite to chase the tenant down they simply keep sending the bill addressed in her name to my property.

At the start of new tenancies, my agents have usually taken meter readings as part of the check-in/inventory process and provided the details to me to contact the relevant suppliers, (they also notify the local authority that a tenant has moved in so final council tax bill can be issued).  Did you notify Shell of the same 4 years ago?  You would've been responsible for the bills up until the date your tenants moved in and you would surely need to send closing meter readings to receive a final bill...?

wolvesbruza

TripleH said:

I had assumed from the comments that the Op was not charging the tenant for the bills but that it was the supplier direct (the Op only referred to rent).

Happy to be corrected if shown to be wrong.

I think a point of note is that a creditor will pursue the easiest option for getting paid especially if they can latch onto confusion or doubt. Why spend effort finding someone who wants to evade you when you can presure a more naive party to pay you instead.

Yes I would agree, I have been naive. But I as you said why try pursuing someone who is evading you when you can latch onto to someone who is proactively attempting to work through this situation with you! 

These people were friends, as soon as they broke up under a quite serious situation and he left. She signed a new tenancy minus his name to claim UC and from that moment on it appears never paid the bills across the board.

wolvesbruza

Alderbank said:

Ath_Wat said:

I honestly don't know the answer to this, and it is more a hypothetical question, but if they track her down and she claims the bills were included in the rent and they need to speak to the OP, and there is nothing in any tenancy agreements to suggest this is either true or untrue, what happens in court?  

This is an excellent question!
As you might expect, this issue is not unknown. Ofgem's answer is that it is a 'deemed' contract.
The law (both the Gas Act and the Electricity Act) says where a supplier supplies gas or electricity to a consumer, the supplier shall be deemed to have contracted with the consumer for the supply of gas or electricity from the time when he began to supply that gas or electricity.

 Ofgem wisely notes that suppliers may not always be aware of customer movements until a period of time has elapsed after the event. A deemed contract therefore seeks to provide a sound and binding basis upon which suppliers will supply customers where a contract has not been expressly agreed. It also provides suppliers with a clear basis upon which to charge for that supply.

If you are a geek and want chapter and verse, here it is:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2006/06/14319-deemed-contracts.pdf

tl;dr if nothing in tenancy agreement, the consumer (the tenant) pays

Thank you very much for this insight. As mentioned previously there are signed tenancies and endless detail providing evidence she lived there.

wolvesbruza

Alderbank said:

Yes.

1. If no tenancy agreement (so the owner has full use and control of the property) the owner is liable for fuel bills.
2. If a tenancy agreement (so the tenant has quiet enjoyment of the property) the tenant is liable for the duration of the tenancy unless the signed tenancy agreement says the landlord will pay instead.

The tenant could sue the landlord but in the absence of any supporting evidence the claim might not succeed.

Both parties lived in the property for 4 years. 3 years 9 months of that was a joint tenancy. Then he left and the contarct changed to a single tenancy agreement. All contracts were signed.

All bills were paid up until month 9 of year 3 when he left. 

wolvesbruza

MisterMotivated said:

Ath_Wat said:

TripleH said:

I had assumed from the comments that the Op was not charging the tenant for the bills but that it was the supplier direct (the Op only referred to rent).

The point is how does the power company know that?  The bills were in the name owner/occupier, didn't change when they are being told this tenant took over, and they have never ever heard of the person he claims was the tenant.  Where's the proof that the tenant exists or ever had any responsibility to pay the bills?

Can they take someone to court for unpaid bills just because the OP claims they were responsible?

A lot of the thread suggests the tenant never had an account with Shell, but the post below seems to contradict this.

wolvesbruza said:

From what Shell told me the bill ran from September 2021 to May 22. In that time...

The ex partner moved out September due to a legal situation arising from their relationship - Although he was on the tenancy agreement until end of December. Shell say he was liable for that portion of the bill for that period.

From January to May the previous tenant is liable according to Shell. However with no forwarding address or what looks like clear appetite to chase the tenant down they simply keep sending the bill addressed in her name to my property.

At the start of new tenancies, my agents have usually taken meter readings as part of the check-in/inventory process and provided the details to me to contact the relevant suppliers, (they also notify the local authority that a tenant has moved in so final council tax bill can be issued).  Did you notify Shell of the same 4 years ago?  You would've been responsible for the bills up until the date your tenants moved in and you would surely need to send closing meter readings to receive a final bill...?

Yes I did as I was living there prior to their moving in.

wolvesbruza

DE_612183 said:

but from their point of view if the "contract" was with the "owner occupier" - thats who they will chase until she calls them and hols her hands up and says I was responsible from Sept 21 to June 22 and here are the start and end readings.

I can understand that as they have not had any contract with her - how can they chase her for debt?

Hopefully this gets resolved - but a lesson learnt is make sure your tenants sign up for the utilities in THEIR name.

As an aside - who brokered the contract shell - you or your tenant?

also look at this way - if she had turned round and said - from october and november i wasn't in the property - you need to get the rent from Joe Bloggs who I don't know where they live - what would you do?

I was not with Shell previously to them moving in so they must have

wolvesbruza

Ath_Wat said:

I honestly don't know the answer to this, and it is more a hypothetical question, but if they track her down and she claims the bills were included in the rent and they need to speak to the OP, and there is nothing in any tenancy agreements to suggest this is either true or untrue, what happens in court?  Who can sue who?  Would a court tell them to get the money from the OP and have him chase her for it?  All the evidence the OP describes above proves that she lived there, but don't seem to say anything about what the agreement was regarding bills.

A lot could probably be down to the way the handover was made from the ex-partner to her - did he ensure the meters were read and bills settled to that point, and tell them he was moving out?  If he confirms that she was told she had to take over bill payments that would go a long way to it.

Sorry, I am just catching up with the thread from over night.

Yes it's detailed in the tenancy that all utilities and meter reading are to be setup in her name, paid for and meter readings submitted.

She just clearly didnt do the set up in her name bit! Which is what I am contesting.

I can prove I havent lived there for 4 years and also that she did. I don't know what more I can do tbh

wolvesbruza

Good point - I wouldn't naturally assume to call all the providers. For instance how would I know if they have changed from British Gas to Shell?

I have only found out about these 3 debts via the debt collection agency who came to the property when I was gutting it due to the damage caused by the scruff!

I called Council Tax and Water up and they had her name on the account BUT she simply had not paid any bills since January!

Shell she never put her name on the account and left it as owner occupier.

Last night I had to have a new boiler fitted as that was broken and also all the radiotors had had the thermo knobs taken off.

Who even does things like that to someone elses property who was a friend and supported the family and kids during a very rough time for them.

TBagpuss

sevenhills said:

user1977 said:

Who told you that nonsense? There's no problem if it's been delivered correctly (i.e. to the correct address, which it has). Might not help you any, of course, and there's no principle that you're liable for her bills anyway.

You can't open someone else's mail, but who is going to know.
I still get debt letters from when I had a lodger. I open them and have a read. Then into the bin, as he went back to India.

Yes, you can. 

What the law (Postal Services Act 2000) says is "A person commits an offence if, intending to act to a person’s detriment and without reasonable excuse, he opens a postal packet which he knows or reasonably suspects has been incorrectly delivered to him"

(Bolding mine)

So, if you open a letter in order to be able to notify the sender that they are using the wrong address, or to try to find telephone or contact details for the sender, you have a reasonable excuse so you are not committing an offence.

If you open a letter because it's been delivered to your home and you are the only occupant, so you don't check the name, you don't commit an offence, as you had a reasonable excuse (belief that post delivered to your home is for you.)

 And even though openng letters from creditors might be to the debtor's detriment if your action ends up in their being traced, you still are not commiting an offence,  as the offence requires that you intended to act to their detriment AND that you did not have a reasonable excuse, and in that case,  you have a reasonable excuse so the full requirement for the offence is not made out even if you did intend to act detrimentally. (and there would be a strong arguemnt that your intnent was to stop the lettersand possible bailiffs etc showing up at the house, and that any dtriment to the former tenant was incidental)

OP, it soundsas though you have a hone number or e-mail address for the tenant if you've been in communication with them, so I would suggest that when you contact the creditors to let them know that she isn o longer living at the property and you do not have a forwrding addres, give them those details. 
I can't see that you have answered the qustiona bout whther Shell is suggesting you are personally liable for thebills or whether the bills were in the tenants neame while she was living there, but if the bill was in her name then you need not worry.