TUI Delay TOM4497

jjmmww1

We just came back from our holiday and had an hour and half delay there as no plane ready and no staff to let us know anything just sat at boarding gate with no info.


But on the way back we had a 3 hr 34 min delay i have claimed on the TUI form on there website and they came back today to mention it was out of there hand saying due to air traffic management. We have an email from them saying it was due to an aircraft arriving late. I was wondering if anyone knows who to apeal a claim to due or get a letter or deadlock from them as i can't seem to find anything or do i just complain to the ADR and see what happens. Do i just go stright to a claims management company and let them do it for 50% off the claim in a hope i get something.

I'm sure there are some people on here with more knowledge than me

CKhalvashi

This was a delay from 2 flights prior, you flew on 9H-SLF (If we are looking at the same flight).

Unless the ATC delays were caused by that flight (I note it landed less than 3 hours late) then this will be within control of the airline and compensation should be payable.

The correct flight number is BY4497 and this information is from FR24.

jjmmww1

CKhalvashi said:

This was a delay from 2 flights prior, you flew on 9H-SLF (If we are looking at the same flight).

Unless the ATC delays were caused by that flight (I note it landed less than 3 hours late) then this will be within control of the airline and compensation should be payable.

The correct flight number is BY4497 and this information is from FR24.

Thank you for your help that sounds like the right plan number. i see you said it was less than 3 hrs less but it was 3hr 34 mins after the orignal landing time.

This was the reponse from filling out there form "

European Regulation EC 261/2004 states that we as the Airline may have to pay compensation to you when you experience a long delay of over 3 hours on arrival, but only if the delay wasn’t caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’. We have investigated your claim for your flight delay of 03 hours and 34 minutes and our delay handling logs show that your flight was delayed due to Air Traffic Control restrictions in place at the airport of arrival, namely London Gatwick. This affected the operating schedule of your flight. In circumstances such as this we are required to follow the decisions of Air Traffic Control. So as to help both customers and airlines, the European Commission has recently published draft guidelines as to what amounts to extraordinary circumstances. This list was prepared with the assistance of the various national bodies responsible for regulating the aviation industry across Europe. In this draft, the Commission has intimated that the following would be considered extraordinary circumstances: 29. Air Traffic Management “Where Air Traffic Control suspends or restricts operations out of the airport of departure or into the airport of arrival.” An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Having investigated into the reasons for the delay to your flight, I can confirm that the circumstances surrounding the delay to your flight are classified as extraordinary circumstances under Regulation 261/2004 of the European Union." Any idea how i take this further to i just send it off to the next people but not sure what further proof i need to take to them

bagand96

If there were significant restrictions on Air Traffic at Gatwick on the day of your flight then TUI may be correct in saying it was circumstances outside their control.

Just to check, what date was your flight? If it was the 8th September (which I think is the date @CKhalvashi is referring to) then there was indeed problems that day at Gatwick

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-09-08/gatwick-passengers-warned-of-delays-due-to-weather-and-staff-sickness

The flight history of the aircraft on that day would also suggest ATC issues. 

jjmmww1

bagand96 said:

If there were significant restrictions on Air Traffic at Gatwick on the day of your flight then TUI may be correct in saying it was circumstances outside their control.

Just to check, what date was your flight? If it was the 8th September (which I think is the date @CKhalvashi is referring to) then there was indeed problems that day at Gatwick

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-09-08/gatwick-passengers-warned-of-delays-due-to-weather-and-staff-sickness

The flight history of the aircraft on that day would also suggest ATC issues. 

Yeah flight back was the 8th of sept arrived on the 9th 

CKhalvashi

jjmmww1 said:

CKhalvashi said:

This was a delay from 2 flights prior, you flew on 9H-SLF (If we are looking at the same flight).

Unless the ATC delays were caused by that flight (I note it landed less than 3 hours late) then this will be within control of the airline and compensation should be payable.

The correct flight number is BY4497 and this information is from FR24.

Thank you for your help that sounds like the right plan number. i see you said it was less than 3 hrs less but it was 3hr 34 mins after the orignal landing time.

This was the reponse from filling out there form "

European Regulation EC 261/2004 states that we as the Airline may have to pay compensation to you when you experience a long delay of over 3 hours on arrival, but only if the delay wasn’t caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’. We have investigated your claim for your flight delay of 03 hours and 34 minutes and our delay handling logs show that your flight was delayed due to Air Traffic Control restrictions in place at the airport of arrival, namely London Gatwick. This affected the operating schedule of your flight. In circumstances such as this we are required to follow the decisions of Air Traffic Control. So as to help both customers and airlines, the European Commission has recently published draft guidelines as to what amounts to extraordinary circumstances. This list was prepared with the assistance of the various national bodies responsible for regulating the aviation industry across Europe. In this draft, the Commission has intimated that the following would be considered extraordinary circumstances: 29. Air Traffic Management “Where Air Traffic Control suspends or restricts operations out of the airport of departure or into the airport of arrival.” An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Having investigated into the reasons for the delay to your flight, I can confirm that the circumstances surrounding the delay to your flight are classified as extraordinary circumstances under Regulation 261/2004 of the European Union." Any idea how i take this further to i just send it off to the next people but not sure what further proof i need to take to them

Apologies, I was referring to the inbound flight from London before yours. Yours did land over the 3 hour mark.

I probably should have been more clear.

bagand96 said:

If there were significant restrictions on Air Traffic at Gatwick on the day of your flight then TUI may be correct in saying it was circumstances outside their control.

Just to check, what date was your flight? If it was the 8th September (which I think is the date @CKhalvashi is referring to) then there was indeed problems that day at Gatwick

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-09-08/gatwick-passengers-warned-of-delays-due-to-weather-and-staff-sickness

The flight history of the aircraft on that day would also suggest ATC issues. 

Yes, to me, that would look like either a major tech fault or ATC issues and given publicly available sources, likely it's the latter.

The question would therefore be whether TUI could have reasonably reduced this delay below 3 hours. Looking at their LGW schedule for this weekend, I'd hazard possibly no, especially as Gatwick was already under severe pressure, meaning even moving another aircraft with a crew to fly it if necessary in from another base would likely not have been possible due ATC restrictions.

Smartlynx being scheduled to operate the sector would also cause further complications in relation to crewing. TUI don't operate the A320 family (or indeed any Airbus aircraft at all) and I'm not sure which airline the cabin crew come from on these flights.

jjmmww1

CKhalvashi said:

jjmmww1 said:

CKhalvashi said:

This was a delay from 2 flights prior, you flew on 9H-SLF (If we are looking at the same flight).

Unless the ATC delays were caused by that flight (I note it landed less than 3 hours late) then this will be within control of the airline and compensation should be payable.

The correct flight number is BY4497 and this information is from FR24.

Thank you for your help that sounds like the right plan number. i see you said it was less than 3 hrs less but it was 3hr 34 mins after the orignal landing time.

This was the reponse from filling out there form "

European Regulation EC 261/2004 states that we as the Airline may have to pay compensation to you when you experience a long delay of over 3 hours on arrival, but only if the delay wasn’t caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’. We have investigated your claim for your flight delay of 03 hours and 34 minutes and our delay handling logs show that your flight was delayed due to Air Traffic Control restrictions in place at the airport of arrival, namely London Gatwick. This affected the operating schedule of your flight. In circumstances such as this we are required to follow the decisions of Air Traffic Control. So as to help both customers and airlines, the European Commission has recently published draft guidelines as to what amounts to extraordinary circumstances. This list was prepared with the assistance of the various national bodies responsible for regulating the aviation industry across Europe. In this draft, the Commission has intimated that the following would be considered extraordinary circumstances: 29. Air Traffic Management “Where Air Traffic Control suspends or restricts operations out of the airport of departure or into the airport of arrival.” An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Having investigated into the reasons for the delay to your flight, I can confirm that the circumstances surrounding the delay to your flight are classified as extraordinary circumstances under Regulation 261/2004 of the European Union." Any idea how i take this further to i just send it off to the next people but not sure what further proof i need to take to them

Apologies, I was referring to the inbound flight from London before yours. Yours did land over the 3 hour mark.

I probably should have been more clear.

bagand96 said:

If there were significant restrictions on Air Traffic at Gatwick on the day of your flight then TUI may be correct in saying it was circumstances outside their control.

Just to check, what date was your flight? If it was the 8th September (which I think is the date @CKhalvashi is referring to) then there was indeed problems that day at Gatwick

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-09-08/gatwick-passengers-warned-of-delays-due-to-weather-and-staff-sickness

The flight history of the aircraft on that day would also suggest ATC issues. 

Yes, to me, that would look like either a major tech fault or ATC issues and given publicly available sources, likely it's the latter.

The question would therefore be whether TUI could have reasonably reduced this delay below 3 hours. Looking at their LGW schedule for this weekend, I'd hazard possibly no, especially as Gatwick was already under severe pressure, meaning even moving another aircraft with a crew to fly it if necessary in from another base would likely not have been possible due ATC restrictions.

Smartlynx being scheduled to operate the sector would also cause further complications in relation to crewing. TUI don't operate the A320 family (or indeed any Airbus aircraft at all) and I'm not sure which airline the cabin crew come from on these flights.

Thanks not worth carrying on our claim then? or shall i just source it to a 3rd party and see if they can recover and they stop worrying about it

CKhalvashi

jjmmww1 said:

CKhalvashi said:

jjmmww1 said:

CKhalvashi said:

This was a delay from 2 flights prior, you flew on 9H-SLF (If we are looking at the same flight).

Unless the ATC delays were caused by that flight (I note it landed less than 3 hours late) then this will be within control of the airline and compensation should be payable.

The correct flight number is BY4497 and this information is from FR24.

Thank you for your help that sounds like the right plan number. i see you said it was less than 3 hrs less but it was 3hr 34 mins after the orignal landing time.

This was the reponse from filling out there form "

European Regulation EC 261/2004 states that we as the Airline may have to pay compensation to you when you experience a long delay of over 3 hours on arrival, but only if the delay wasn’t caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’. We have investigated your claim for your flight delay of 03 hours and 34 minutes and our delay handling logs show that your flight was delayed due to Air Traffic Control restrictions in place at the airport of arrival, namely London Gatwick. This affected the operating schedule of your flight. In circumstances such as this we are required to follow the decisions of Air Traffic Control. So as to help both customers and airlines, the European Commission has recently published draft guidelines as to what amounts to extraordinary circumstances. This list was prepared with the assistance of the various national bodies responsible for regulating the aviation industry across Europe. In this draft, the Commission has intimated that the following would be considered extraordinary circumstances: 29. Air Traffic Management “Where Air Traffic Control suspends or restricts operations out of the airport of departure or into the airport of arrival.” An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Having investigated into the reasons for the delay to your flight, I can confirm that the circumstances surrounding the delay to your flight are classified as extraordinary circumstances under Regulation 261/2004 of the European Union." Any idea how i take this further to i just send it off to the next people but not sure what further proof i need to take to them

Apologies, I was referring to the inbound flight from London before yours. Yours did land over the 3 hour mark.

I probably should have been more clear.

bagand96 said:

If there were significant restrictions on Air Traffic at Gatwick on the day of your flight then TUI may be correct in saying it was circumstances outside their control.

Just to check, what date was your flight? If it was the 8th September (which I think is the date @CKhalvashi is referring to) then there was indeed problems that day at Gatwick

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-09-08/gatwick-passengers-warned-of-delays-due-to-weather-and-staff-sickness

The flight history of the aircraft on that day would also suggest ATC issues. 

Yes, to me, that would look like either a major tech fault or ATC issues and given publicly available sources, likely it's the latter.

The question would therefore be whether TUI could have reasonably reduced this delay below 3 hours. Looking at their LGW schedule for this weekend, I'd hazard possibly no, especially as Gatwick was already under severe pressure, meaning even moving another aircraft with a crew to fly it if necessary in from another base would likely not have been possible due ATC restrictions.

Smartlynx being scheduled to operate the sector would also cause further complications in relation to crewing. TUI don't operate the A320 family (or indeed any Airbus aircraft at all) and I'm not sure which airline the cabin crew come from on these flights.

Thanks not worth carrying on our claim then? or shall i just source it to a 3rd party and see if they can recover and they stop worrying about it

You can try by asking for an exact and specific reason for the delay, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the answer isn't positive. 

No need to pay another company to do this for you, it won't change the compensation rights, if any exist.

bagand96

The aircraft 9H-SLF (great reg!) operated the following on 8th September

TOM4454 LGW-BOJ 0700-1220  07:26-12:25

TOM4455 BOJ-LGW 1355-1525  17:08-18:25

TOM4496 LGW-LPA 1650-2110  20:06-00:04
TOM4497 LPA-LGW 2210-0210  01:45-05:34

So it started it's day fine leaving Gatwick and getting to Burgas on time. That's when something went wrong. It was on the ground there over 4 and a half hours. As @CKhalvashi said that would point to a technical problem or some other major disruption such as ATC/Airport restrictions.

Given that a lot of Europe/UK did experience bad weather that day, and Gatwick had ATC issues that are documented I'd be inclined to say that TUI aren't lying.

Generally the airlines aren't allowed to use "knock on" delays as an excuse, however if there was major disruption that day they probably couldn't have done much else. 

Again I agree with @CKhalvashi you could go back to TUI and ask for more specific reasons. Then you have the option of ADR or Small Claims Court. But it depends how far you want to take it, and the ADR or court may find in TUIs favour too.

Solicitors/claims companies are an option too, but again they may just bow out as well if they think there's little chance of success. 

jjmmww1

Thanks for the help guys i just referred it to ADR and will see what happens was hoping for a claim to pay for next years 

CKhalvashi

bagand96 said:

The aircraft 9H-SLF (great reg!) operated the following on 8th September

I thought the same
Hope that one doesn't have a PCF conversion for sure.

jjmmww1 said:

Thanks for the help guys i just referred it to ADR and will see what happens was hoping for a claim to pay for next years 

I'm not convinced having looked at this that it's going to happen, but good luck anyway.

Any company offering free holidays is unfortunately going to end up severely out of pocket in the end.