Infrared to Assist Underfloor Heating

nirish

Last year we converted our double garage to a double height vaulted ceiling living room with underfloor heating.  We've exhausted all options and the underfloor isn't sufficient to heat the room on the coldest winter days.

I'm looking at solutions ahead of this winter and am interested in Infrared Heating to provide the feeling of warmth when the rooms air temperature isn't as high as we would want it.

I'm really not familiar with the technology, does anyone have experience with it or with the companies I'm speaking to (Herschel and Redwell)?

I'm also concerned about it's range as the room is reasonably large so am considering the portable Pipewave by Redwell, quite niche but does anyone have any experience or opinions on it? 

https://redwellinfraredheating.com/products/pipewave?variant=16940650397786

Reed_Richards

Infrared heaters are sometimes ascribed magical propertied but the truth is that they only heat you effectively when you are close to one.  Like any other form of radiation they will follow an inverse square law so if you get X amount of heat if you are 1 m away from the heater you will get X/4 at 2 m away, X/9 at 3 m away etc.  In practice the IR heater will warm solid objects in the room which will in turn warm the air so you will get actual warmth but no more so than you would from a fan heater, which will also make you feel warm if you position one close to you.  

BUFF

this might be worth a look - certainly a lot cheaper. https://www.gtech.co.uk/garden-tools/utility/heatwave-patio-heater.html

Rodders53

What sort of UFH? Wet from oil/lpg/gas CH boiler?  Or the dreaded electric heating mat?  Who designed and installed it?  Have they made an error in the design?

Does the conversion meet Building Regs for insulation under the the floor slab, in the walls and ceilings? Is glazing all to the latest spec and draught-free.  Can insulation be further improved?

Electric heating is probably best avoided but for a few cold winter days the simpler portable fan or radiant heaters would probably be the cheapest way.  Air to air heat pumps can provide heat in winter and cool in summer to supplement UFH and would likely be as cheap as one of those 1200W jobs you link to (and provide more heat for less electric).

nirish

Thanks everyone for your opinions, I feel some of the apparent benefits that drew me to Infrared are being overlooked, would you agree with these??

- As the ceiling is double height and infrared doesn't directly heat the air I'm less likely to suffer from convection taking the heat upwards compared to fan or air to air heat pump solutions

- The room can be fresh in the mornings as we don't run the underfloor through the night but heat from the infrared could make the room usable as you'd feel warmer regardless of air temperature when it's on

nirish

BUFF said:

this might be worth a look - certainly a lot cheaper. https://www.gtech.co.uk/garden-tools/utility/heatwave-patio-heater.html

Cheers @BUFF but despite the value this offers, I doubt I'll be able to convince the other half that a patio heater is the solution in her newly finished and carefully designed dream room 

nirish

Rodders53 said:

What sort of UFH? Wet from oil/lpg/gas CH boiler?  Or the dreaded electric heating mat?  Who designed and installed it?  Have they made an error in the design?

Does the conversion meet Building Regs for insulation under the the floor slab, in the walls and ceilings? Is glazing all to the latest spec and draught-free.  Can insulation be further improved?

Electric heating is probably best avoided but for a few cold winter days the simpler portable fan or radiant heaters would probably be the cheapest way.  Air to air heat pumps can provide heat in winter and cool in summer to supplement UFH and would likely be as cheap as one of those 1200W jobs you link to (and provide more heat for less electric).

@Rodders53 I've discussed this endlessly on others forums and have mentally moved on from the cause and responsibility but briefly, Wet UFH from new Gas Boiler.  Building work meets regulations to the best of my knowledge, this has been trawled through with the builder.  The builder arranged for an underfloor heating fitter, I'm not convinced it was "designed" to meet the high demands of the room (vaulted ceiling, three external walls, multiple windows, french doors and skylights) but they claim pipes are as close as feasible and system functioning as expected.

Simply speaking in the coldest days heat loss is too much for heat produced, no one will accept responsibility so I'm moving on to solutions .... options on the table are ...

- Plumbing in a rad from existing system in house but considerable upheaval needed and can't be run independently of all other rads

- Infrared solution as discussed with percieved benefits mentioned above and very simple to "install"

- Air to Air Heat Pump sounds very interesting but feels like over-engineering the solution to for what you say is "those few cold winter days" where the room isn't reaching desired temps and perhaps the odd morning where it is still cold from overnight.

Rodders53

I have oil-fired wet UFH in a kitchen diner. 15 yo house.  Vaulted ceiling 3 external walls and lots of glazing. It takes aeons to warm the slab so UFH is almost u/s for shoulder months heating. Hence I have installed a-a heat pump.  
In winter with UFH running if the room gets sun it overheats as the slab continues to heat the room even with room stat satisfied.

It's taken us 4-5 years to tweak the settings for the house (all UFH downstairs) thermostats and timers and mix temperature to gat anything like what we want.  Even then there are 'cold spots' on the floor due to some design quirks (incompetence) of original builder/insallers.

Those heat pipe 'radiants' you linked to are stupidly expensive for 300 Watt to 1200 Watt electric heaters.  CH wet radiators to supplement would be my preferred.  Then ashp.  Then electric (e.g. panel) heaters and control them via their own built-stats and smart-plugs.  Perhaps consider electric throws for the cold days when you are sat still (when you notice it's not comfortably warm)?

Reed_Richards

nirish said:

 would you agree with these??

- As the ceiling is double height and infrared doesn't directly heat the air I'm less likely to suffer from convection taking the heat upwards compared to fan or air to air heat pump solutions

I don't agree.  Convection is a fact of life. Most of the infra-red will heat the floor, the walls and the furniture.  This will heat the air which will rise upwards due to convection.  The hot air will be more widely distributed than the hot air from a fan or air-to-air heat pump but I doubt that will make much difference; hot air rises.

nirish said:

- The room can be fresh in the mornings as we don't run the underfloor through the night but heat from the infrared could make the room usable as you'd feel warmer regardless of air temperature when it's on

You would only feel warm regardless of air temperature if you were stationary and close to the IR heater.  With those provisos you could achieve the same with a fan heater.
    

nirish

Thanks @Rodders53 and @Reed_Richards for your experiences and opinions .... I agree the price point for the Infrared option is a serious sticking point but I do see advantages, zero installation, runs quietly, can be controlled independently when needed and the heat provided doesn't instantly rise as convection/fan heaters do.

I agree with just about everything you've both said but to be devils advocate some drawback to the alternatives I see are:

Central Heating Rad - Need to rip up the new floor to access existing pipework in linked hallway and then run new pipes through interior walls, if the room is fresh in the evening when we use it I'd have to turn all rads in the house on just to heat this room!

Air to Air Heat Pump - I don't know enough about this other than some brief reading, interests me but seems a significant piece of kit just for one room and will it sound like a fan is running when it's on?

Fan Heater - Our electric fireplace which we bought for it's aesthetic has a 1500W fan heater, when we run it the noise is terrible when watching TV and you don't feel virtually any heat as it just goes straight up!

 

Reed_Richards

nirish said:

Fan Heater - Our electric fireplace which we bought for it's aesthetic has a 1500W fan heater, when we run it the noise is terrible when watching TV and you don't feel virtually any heat as it just goes straight up! 

It goes straight up because it's in the fireplace.  If you're not moving around a lot you need heater that you can position close to you, so that probably means a mobile heater; your unlikely to be sitting right in front of the fireplace.  If you are moving around a lot, that will help you keep warm.