Coroner's Inquest & Pensions help!!!

KJR123

My dad died in January, his death is subject to a coroner's inquest.

His share of the house was held with my mum as joint tenants so that's already passed to her automatically upon his death & not subject to probate. 

What is left is his BMW (worth about £10k), shotguns (worth £1.5k) plus 2 pensions. However, the pensions will not disclose to us the amount they are worth & they say it's at their discretion if they pay out at all to any named beneficiaries. But they won't even confirm if there are any named beneficiaries. They say they want to know the cause of death before paying out which will only be confirmed post the inquest hearing. Despite his death being in January 2022, we are being told the final hearing will not be until April next year.

I'm stuck storing his car on my drive which is upsetting to see every day to be honest & have had to arrange insurance for etc. There's potential his estate could be insolvenant because there are 3 unsecured loans for 10k, £3k & £3k.

Where do we stand with all the this? I have an interim death certificate but don't know where to go from here if pensions won't confirm their stance.

msb1234

I can only suppose that until the cause of your father’s death is ascertained in court they cannot pay out. This could be because there would be the potential for his death to be suicide or something more sinister. Have they said WHY they cannot yet pay out? 

Regarding the unsecured loans, you need to inform them about the circumstances, and they cannot be paid off until such time as the coroner has completed the inquest. 

Regarding his car, it may be better to sell it now and put the money into an account until after the inquest. If the insurance doesn’t pay out enough to cover the loans, the car money will be needed to pay them.

GrumpyDil

My understanding is that the pensions will not form part of his estate so the determination as to whether the estate is insolvent will not be impacted by anything the insurance company does. 

KJR123

Thank you that would make sense as I guess a pension is similar in nature to his life insurance policy which already paid out to my mum outside of his estate.

He did commit suicide but he was under the care of the hospital at the time & it's being strongly hinted at by the Coroner that there will be a finding of neglect on the part of the hospital, which makes things more complicated really. I don't know much about pensions at all. Is it likely that his cause of death would just make his pension void? Seems unfair when he's paid money into it for 30 years.

We have listed the car on a traders auction website called Motorway with a reserve on it. So if an estate is insolvenant, under these circumstances is it fine or justified to just sell it? It feels like costs are accruing on it & it's just sat devaluing so to me makes sense to sell it.

GrumpyDil

The problem with an insolvent estate is that the general advice is walk away if you can or if you can't be very careful about how you administer the estate as you need to settle priority debts first.

As regards the pensions the situation depends slightly upon the type of pension.

If they are defined benefit schemes then what gets paid out depends upon the scheme rules but might include a spouses or dependents pension or death benefits. There is no pension fund as such and the trustees generally have discretion on who to pay death benefits out too, although they will generally take note of a nomination.

If defined contribution then there is a fund which I think can be paid out in all cases. Again the trustees will generally take account of nominations but are not bound to follow them.

I suspect the trustees want to understand the cause of death as it would likely impact their decision. 

KJR123

Thank you so much for the information. I'll make some enquiries about that. It feels more straight forward that it's not included within the estate.

I think walking away is out of the window as my sister is legally classed as his next of kin (complicated family dynamics) & she has already sold his guns & popped the money in her savings account. So think we will now have to sort it.

She's really struggling with everything, so trying to help her a bit. 

Mojisola

KJR123 said:

Thank you so much for the information. I'll make some enquiries about that. It feels more straight forward that it's not included within the estate.

I think walking away is out of the window as my sister is legally classed as his next of kin (complicated family dynamics) & she has already sold his guns & popped the money in her savings account. So think we will now have to sort it.

There is no such thing as a legal next of kin.  People can nominate a NOK for health purposes but not for dealing with an estate.

RAS

Assuming England or Wales?

And assuming dad did not have a will?

Since your father has a wife, unless  divorced, she has the right to administered the estate. So his children should not be taking any action unless they have explicit consent from his wife.

If he owed £16K, it would be unwise to "administer" the estate, even if informally unless there is that amount in assets to cover the debts. Since your sister appears to have started that process, she is legally responsible for completely it. I'd suggest you take a back-step and she discusses this with his wife. 

Hopefully his wife will agree to cover any deficit?

Marcon

GrumpyDil said:

If they are defined benefit schemes then what gets paid out depends upon the scheme rules but might include a spouses or dependents pension or death benefits. There is no pension fund as such and the trustees generally have discretion on who to pay death benefits out too, although they will generally take note of a nomination.

There most certainly is a fund unless the member was in an unfunded public sector scheme - that's what provides benefits for survivors.

Lump sum death in service benefits are usually covered by a separate insurance policy, and as you rightly say, the trustees have discretion as to the recipients, which under current legislation means payments can normally be made free of tax.

OP - was your father in employment at the time of his death? If not, there is unlikely to be any tax free lump sum due, but a spouse's pension will normally be provided in the rules of the scheme (ditto pensions if there are any 'eligible children' - usually the maximum age for payment is up to age 22 if the trustees decide the 'child' is still in full time education or training, otherwise children's pensions usually stop at 18.

KJR123 said:

Where do we stand with all the this? I have an interim death certificate but don't know where to go from here if pensions won't confirm their stance.

Probably the best place to go is https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/pensions-and-retirement/pension-problems where you'll find sympathetic, expert, and impartial help - and it's free.

Keep_pedalling

You don’t need probate to sell the car, it will just sit loosing value on your drive so why not sell it especially as upsetting you so much seeing it there.

Regardless of who’s name was on the registration documents I would treat the family car as a joint asset that is now owned by you mother outright. Taking that line of thought his total sole assets are worth less than his funeral costs (assuming that none of his loans are secured) I would simply write to his creditors informing them that your father’s estate is insolvent and that no one is administering it.

KJR123

Thanks for the additional advice. There's a complicated family dynamic because my dad never married my mum.

We've found out that one of the life insurance policies lists my sister as the sole beneficiary. But my sister seems to believe that it doesn't pass to her & is marking it as with the estate money. That being said the pension company has said that they are going to contact the Coroner for more information as the final death certificate is not available. Does suicide just cancel out pensions? Xx