New floor - credit card refund, company still want payment

pedro789

Hi
Would appreciate any advice pls. 

I had new floor fitted in March, paid 50% upfront via credit card
The fitting was very poor and gave floor company chance to rectify
After second try, there were still lot of issues
I told company still wasn't satisfactory and would be making claim with credit card company (Section 75)
Credit card company asked for independent report, which supported claim and said work was unsatisfactory
Credit card company has tried to contact floor company without response
Credit company has agreed to repay 50% deposit, but said they will not be liable for any claim by company - suggested I get legal advice
Floor company are still emailing asking for balance to be paid

Grateful for any advice, thanks.

Alderbank

Two issues here:

1. You paid an amount £x on credit card. You made s75 claim and the credit card company has agreed to repay that amount in full, so they have discharged their obligation.
2. You have had a floor fitted which is unsatisfactory. The floor company are asking for money.

You can hope the flooring company will go away or you could negotiate with them. If you can't reach an agreement the flooring company might start court action against you, hence the suggestion about legal advice.

pedro789

Thanks and yes that summarises it.
I don't understand why floor company hasn't responded to credit card company?
They could have commissioned their own report if they believe they've done an acceptable job.
If I start negotiating doesn't it legitimise their request for payment? 

Gavin83

What sort of flooring is it?

Whats your plan for the floor, to rip it all out, throw it away and get someone else to start from scratch?

Alderbank

pedro789 said:

If I start negotiating doesn't it legitimise their request for payment? 

Well, anyone can ask.  From their point of view they have carried out work for you and only been paid 50%. If they do commence a claim and you maintain a dignified silence they will win by default.

You don't say whether they have seen the damning report commissioned by the cc company. If they keep pestering I would point out they have received 50% for an unsatisfactory job which is more than they deserve, and make sure they are aware about the independent report. 

Dimanche_Prochain

If you feel you're in the right, refuse to pay the balance and wait to see if they sue you for it.

I suspect the card company did a chargeback though, rather than an S75 claim so yeah, good luck with that.

km1500

well currently you have had your deposit back and thus paid zero for the floor

is the floor really so bad that is has zero value ?

if you can't reach a negotiated settlement then the company might take you to court. If they do, you can put your side of the story to the judge but the judge may take a dim view of your refusal to pay anything.

decide on the floor value to you (50%? less?) and offer that to the company.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

@pedro789

Hello OP

Firstly you need to clarify with the bank whether they performed a chargeback or a Section 75 claim.

If it was a chargeback the bank would have pulled the money back from the floor company.

If it was S75 the bank would have paid you from their funds (although they may seek to recover this from the floor company, I think it depends on the amount).

Moving on to the floor you have a contract for services (fitting) and goods (the floor). 

Regarding the service this must be carried out with due care and skill, where it isn't the service does not conform to the contract and you have the right to a repeat performance. As that repeat performance was carried out and the service still did not conform you have the right to a price reduction.

Should the floor require lifting and refitting then the price reduction should be the full fee. If the floor company carried out something else (as an example, taking up the old floor and disposal) this should be considered as they would likely be due payment for such aspects and this should be factored in to the value of the price reduction. 

With regards to the goods more details on the type of floor and what the specific problems were would be helpful for a full answer. 

Should the goods be in a state where they can't be reused then you'd be entitled to reject them for a full refund (final right to reject) or accept them as they are for a price reduction. 

Should you accept them as they are and leave the floor down this again may effect the value of the price reduction for the service aspect. 

If the goods are fine but just need to be laid again then payment for the goods would be due but the flooring company would have to cover the cost of any labour to get you back to where you was to begin with (but not the cost of being laid again and you effectively won't have paid first time around due to the price reduction). 

If it was something like laminate and 90% of the boards are fine but the cuts around the edges, as an example, need new boards, then you'd factor this as part of the price reduction for the goods, should you wish to keep them. 

It's your choice between rejecting the goods and a price reduction. 

If you have some more details a more specific answer can be given  

born_again

Dimanche_Prochain said:

If you feel you're in the right, refuse to pay the balance and wait to see if they sue you for it.

I suspect the card company did a chargeback though, rather than an S75 claim so yeah, good luck with that.

I did wonder that, but "Floor company are still emailing asking for balance to be paid"

If the flooring co are only asking for the balance then it can't be a chargeback. They would want the full amount as no mention of rejection.

pedro789

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

@pedro789

Hello OP

Firstly you need to clarify with the bank whether they performed a chargeback or a Section 75 claim.

If it was a chargeback the bank would have pulled the money back from the floor company.

If it was S75 the bank would have paid you from their funds (although they may seek to recover this from the floor company, I think it depends on the amount).

Moving on to the floor you have a contract for services (fitting) and goods (the floor). 

Regarding the service this must be carried out with due care and skill, where it isn't the service does not conform to the contract and you have the right to a repeat performance. As that repeat performance was carried out and the service still did not conform you have the right to a price reduction.

Should the floor require lifting and refitting then the price reduction should be the full fee. If the floor company carried out something else (as an example, taking up the old floor and disposal) this should be considered as they would likely be due payment for such aspects and this should be factored in to the value of the price reduction. 

With regards to the goods more details on the type of floor and what the specific problems were would be helpful for a full answer. 

Should the goods be in a state where they can't be reused then you'd be entitled to reject them for a full refund (final right to reject) or accept them as they are for a price reduction. 

Should you accept them as they are and leave the floor down this again may effect the value of the price reduction for the service aspect. 

If the goods are fine but just need to be laid again then payment for the goods would be due but the flooring company would have to cover the cost of any labour to get you back to where you was to begin with (but not the cost of being laid again and you effectively won't have paid first time around due to the price reduction). 

If it was something like laminate and 90% of the boards are fine but the cuts around the edges, as an example, need new boards, then you'd factor this as part of the price reduction for the goods, should you wish to keep them. 

It's your choice between rejecting the goods and a price reduction. 

If you have some more details a more specific answer can be given  

Thanks, really appreciate the response.

Chargeback/Section 75 - I'll find out from credit card company.

It's Karndean flooring which was poorly fitted - bad cuts, joins, wrong border trim used + not level.

This was all detailed in the independent report, so my dissatisfaction was validated in the report.

I checked with Karndean and they said boards shouldn't be reused after fitting, as it compromises integrity of product.

I'm quite happy for them to take it up + I'll have it redone. But I don't want to do that until I know if I have to pay. I can't afford to pay twice!

The credit company tried to contact them on numerous occasions but they have ignored. If they think job is acceptable, why not commission their own assessment?

If we can reach agreement, would this go to court or ombudsman?

Thanks for your advice.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

pedro789 said:

If we can reach agreement, would this go to court or ombudsman?

Usually a consumer would raise an issue to an ombudsman, I'm not sure if there is one that covers this type of thing or if there is that you'd gain anything from it.

Regarding court the company has the opportunity to file through small claims in an attempt to recover anything they think is due, you'd obviously be able to submit a defence, a counter-claim if one was due and I think these things go to mediation before getting to a court. 

pedro789 said:

It's Karndean flooring which was poorly fitted - bad cuts, joins, wrong border trim used + not level.

This was all detailed in the independent report, so my dissatisfaction was validated in the report.

I checked with Karndean and they said boards shouldn't be reused after fitting, as it compromises integrity of product.

I'm quite happy for them to take it up + I'll have it redone. But I don't want to do that until I know if I have to pay. I can't afford to pay twice!

OK so if you want the floor up and laid again then you'd look at a price reduction for the service, full fee minus anything that did that was OK, (as above removal ,etc)

For the goods I'm assuming this isn't a glue down floor. Although Karndean may recommend not to reuse the boards whether the small claims process would agree is another matter really. In my view the manufacturer has a vested interest in saying this but then you could argue they know more than the flooring company who didn't fit the floor to a decent standard! 

On reflection regarding the goods, I'm not sure if it's a case of them not conforming to the contract or the company causing you a loss by damaging them. @Jenni_D might have an opinion on this  

Personally I'd send them a letter along the lines off:

Dear Flooring Company

With regards to your request for payment, as discussed and as detailed in the independent report commissioned (please find a copy of this attached), the service of laying the floor was not carried out with due care and skill, as a repeat performance has already been carried out, having sought advice, I am exercising my right to a price reduction. As the floor will be required to be lifted and refitted in full this price reduction shall be the full fee. 

Your obligations and my entitlements are detailed in section 4 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, linked to below for your reference:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/4/enacted

With regards to the goods as they have been damaged due to poor fitting and the manufacturer advises against refitting once laid you may remove the floor and collect the goods at your expense and at suitable time for both of us.  

Thank you in advance and I look forward to seeing an end to this matter,
Sincerely,
pedro789 

If it was S75 the company may think they've got 50% safe in their pocket and walk away. If it was a chargeback they may be more resistant or some payment may be due to them. 

You need to make sure you are as reasonable as possible in what you claim, I understand you aren't happy with the whole situation and are probably annoyed at all the headache but it's important to view this from an emotionless position. You need to be fair and pay for things you have received and sadly dismiss any claims to things you can't quantity (such as time, stress, etc). I only mention this as in the unlikely event they do go via small claims having acted fair and reasonable will put you in a stronger position  


Just to add my replies are assuming you purchased the floor from the same company that fitted it.