Registering a bare trust .Really appreciate some help.

ANGLICANPAT

 Two separate and  serious problems in my family's health this year have consumed most of my time and energy,so Im aware Im very last minute with registering.  .Partly I had to wait months  to get a trustee's disputed mental health assessment    ,  plus initially  I naively thought registering would take just  few minutes like it does with a new washing machine, so I didnt prioritise it enough . Now Ive only got a couple of days to do  trusts. for minors 
So far I have  sorted the first  Gov Gateway user ID  and password.   and I know I need to create a second one for the second registration.Each trust was originally directly  created by me the settler and  BGifford using their  Childrens saving plan ,and choosing  SMortgage IT to put into it, buying into it 3 separate times , and then later selling some of that  to buy  into  Impax Environmental markets fund and junior isas.I   remember  filling in a trust application and  trustees signing it etc but I dont seem to have a particular  trust deed or anything . Eventually it was taken over by HL. I dont know if you can stop and start on the registration  form  to search for help for  answers, so Im trying to round up  the info I need first . Very grateful for some help please. ps Ive read loads and nothing has helped answer the questions. 

Ive not tried to  start filling one in yet , but reading  up around it , it appears I have to name the trust . 

1) Will  eg.  the made up   ' Bare Trust for 'Miss Tilly Mint ' do ,   or is the original  'BG Savings Plan' its title ?

2  Its a bare trust.   Each  child had to submit  a personal tax  return to HMRC to pay a small amount of CGT  last year after  I sold some SMort.  ,it wasnt a trusts tax return , and I paid the tax for them ,    so  is the trust counted as a taxable trust  or a non taxable trust?  ie will I get a URN or  UTR back

3)  Bare trust can be Express or Implied . Im thinking Express  since (looking at google definition) ,   I  deliberately intended to create the trust ,  but  Im not sure how to find out  if thats correct ?

4)   someone said something in a post  on registation  about  having to choose to call themselves an organization   as there was no option for a private person .  I dont understand that or if I will  have to register as such in the given scenario above ?





   

xylophone

 someone said something in a post  on registation  about  having to choose to call themselves an organization 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/79409331#Comment_79409331

ANGLICANPAT

Thanks xylophone,   any takers for other  3 questions by any chance please?

xylophone

I   remember  filling in a trust application and  trustees signing it etc but I dont seem to have a particular  trust deed or anything 

https://www.thepfs.org/technical-articles/2021/august/trust-creation-what-is-an-express-trust/#:~:text=According to the Manual, an,deed or declaration of trust.

so  is the trust counted as a taxable trust  or a non taxable trust?

You state

 Each  child had to submit  a personal tax  return to HMRC to pay a small amount of CGT

You mean that the Trustees submitted tax returns on behalf of the children who have their own CGT Allowance within the Bare Trust.

https://www.taxinsider.co.uk/the-bare-essentials-bare-trusts-ta

https://www.gov.uk/trusts-taxes/registering-a-trust

If your trust is liable for UK taxes

You must usually register your trust with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) if it becomes liable for any of the following:

• Capital Gains Tax
• Income Tax
• Inheritance Tax
• Stamp Duty Reserve Tax
• Stamp Duty Land Tax or Land and Buildings Transaction Tax (in Scotland)
• Land Transaction Tax (in Wales)

You must also register a trust to claim tax relief.

it appears I have to name the trust . 

1) Will  eg.  the made up   ' Bare Trust for 'Miss Tilly Mint ' do ,   or is the original  'BG Savings Plan' its title ?

The Trusts are no longer BG Savings Plans so there seems no point in using BG in the name.

I 'd have thought that eg Mary Jane Smith Bare Trust would be perfectly adequate.

ANGLICANPAT

xylophone , thank you  so much.  I have read some of the links before,  but  was still left doubting,  too worried about it to see the wood for the trees I think .  Your highlighting  really helped push me in the right direction and I really appreciate it . 

ANGLICANPAT

xylophone , I just realized what is throwing  me on the 'is it a taxable trust ' question .   The registration form you fill in  says about  registering if  you need to pay cgt and need a  UTR  for the trust.    .  Well if the childs  own  UTR was used last time on their ordinary tax return , to submit  the last CGT they paid , if anywhere on the registration  form it asks for the trust's  UTR ,  is that  it , or  do we get a new one just for tax  obligations occuring purely within the trust ?   

xylophone

You will have noted from the link

https://www.thepfs.org/technical-articles/2021/august/trust-creation-what-is-an-express-trust/#:~:text=According to the Manual, an,deed or declaration of trust

and see also

https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/tolley/tax/guidance/bare-trusts-income-tax-and-cgt#:~:text=Although a bare trust is,their income and chargeable gains.

that it is not the  Trust/Trustee (s) but the beneficiary who is both entitled to the appropriate allowances ( personal and CG)  and liable to any tax (income or CG)  that may arise within a Bare (absolute/simple) Trust.

Nevertheless, even though  a Bare Trust  does not fall within the Taxable  Trust definition, even if regarded as non taxable, it must still be registered  if does not fall within any of the categories that are exempt from registration.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/trust-registration-service-manual/trsm10030#:~:text=Bare trusts are not required,beneficiaries rather than the trustees.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/trust-registration-service-manual/trsm23000

Having regard to the above, it seems to me (no expert) that  in the case of your Trust (Investment Account held on behalf of a minor) that what would be required would  likely be a URN but you should check with HMRC if unsure,

ANGLICANPAT

Re read all the bits  three more times and yes  I think that its URN   . Thanks again xylophone, you're a star! 

xylophone

Do let us know how you get on as it may be helpful to other posters in a similar situation.

ANGLICANPAT

 Ive just finished the first one  xylophone.   I created the  Gov gateway id ready   a few days ago , but when I put it  in , it said  it was invalid as it was  too old !!!   Then it gave me the option to create new details and provided a shiny new GW. ID and took me then straight to  the pre registration  page which  asked if  the  trust had  been liable to pay CGT previously or was liable for any tax in coming tax year .  Answering no to all those  took me to the registration page which was extremely simple .  just  name of trust   done as  suggested by yourself,   date of original creation ,has trust acquired land or property in uk since  Oct 2020  NO ,  Is trust reg  on the trust reg of any  countries within the EEA  NO.  and after that just personal details of  the Settler/s ,  Trustees,  Beneficiaries  followed by a declaration page to fill in  . That was it . Posting it produced the 15 digit URN .  I think filtering out the tax part  in the pre registration page  gave the simple form  , and if Id been doing a trust that did need to declare tax it could  have been a more complicated form provided and required  more detail  .   I was surprised though that there were no questions at all about what funds were in the trust . 
Just one more  GW ID   and trust to go , then I can sleep !!    Thanks again for your help.  

ANGLICANPAT

Just finished the second one  which went smoothly  until I got to the end , and posting it did NOT bring up a  15 digit URN , it just said to get it Id have to log out and log in again with the  same details id  registered the trust  with .  Fine except when I logged back in it said  the  login details were not valid .I know they were  exactly right because I double checked every digit I recorded  on creating the  GW id and pw,      and tried twice  to log in and failed.  Thankfully  Ive  printed off the registrations reference numbers , so thats ok  and Ill sort out the login with HMRC after the deadline date. In creating the gateway  id /pw   you have to give your email address. I  used the same email address for both , so Im wondering if thats the problem.