I don't understand the huge price increases when we are not reliant on Russia for gas

BUFF

You would not need to nationalise the whole of Shell/BP etc. though, just the UK operational part & indeed, possibly not all of that (just UK energy supply?).

Personally, I believe that strategic national infrastructure (water, energy supply, roads etc.) should be planned & owned by the country but I am quite open to private enterprise running those assets.
Even nationalised energy companies would still have to buy in gas etc. at global wholesale rates though (until the day that we can generate all the power that we need without hydrocarbons) ...

gazapc

wrf12345 said:

I understand why gas rates have gone up due to worldwide demand but surel40y the electricity is generated locally and only a small part is gas generated so that should not be rising on the wholesale market in a way that mirrors gas - but it is, this needs to be investigated at govn level as its smacks of a big con but I am sure someone in the industry will justify their six figure salary by explaining.

You are incorrect that a small % is gas. It is over 40% in the UK.

In anycase gas prices have risen much more than electricity.

You also have the issues with the French nuclear fleet which has made them turn from an electricity exporter to an importer. That has temporarily made our electricity more expensive.

spot1034

wrf12345 said:

I understand why gas rates have gone up due to worldwide demand but surely the electricity is generated locally and only a small part is gas generated so that should not be rising on the wholesale market in a way that mirrors gas - but it is, this needs to be investigated at govn level as its smacks of a big con but I am sure someone in the industry will justify their six figure salary by explaining.

At the moment, as I write this, gas is producing 59% of our electricity. That's with low weekend demand on a warm day - if it was a weekday and colder it would be significantly more.

Despite the huge investment in wind turbines over the last couple of decades, wind output this morning at the time of writing (and bear in mind once again this is a morning where demand is low) is only 3% of the total.

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

[Deleted User]

BUFF said:

Personally, I believe that strategic national infrastructure (water, energy supply, roads etc.) should be planned & owned by the country but I am quite open to private enterprise running those assets.
Even nationalised energy companies would still have to buy in gas etc. at global wholesale rates though (until the day that we can generate all the power that we need without hydrocarbons) ...

We couldn’t afford to pay for it in a generation. Even buying the remaining 15.9% of EDF that it doesn’t already own, is going to cost the French Government over £8Bn. Looking at my water provider, Severn Trent, it has a market valuation of over £6Bn. Taking over a company requires a much bigger payment.

Nationalised industries are not the panacea that people might think. Just look at our much-loved NHS: it is a badly run bureaucratic nightmare which has health outcomes far worse than the health services in other countries. It is reluctant to change because it has no direct competition. The other problem, which lead to the privatisation of the energy and water sectors in the first place, is that they rely on Government investment. When politicians are after votes, these sectors tend to get neglected in favour of more grandiose schemes.

mark_cycling00

Switzerland has an electricity energy mix of 65% hydro-electric, 30% nuclear. Making it one of the most renewable countries in the world.

Yet the government is actively planning for energy rationing:
https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/swiss-ready-plans-gas-shortages-could-resort-rationing-2022-06-29/

The small percentage of gas needed by Switzerland is mostly for heating homes and indirectly came from Russia. They were buying it from German suppliers but it all originated from that Russian pipe.

The Swiss are quite astonished as they had always assumed they were almost self-sufficient in renewable energy but are not being told that their heating may go off in winter.

BUFF

[Deleted User] said:

BUFF said:

Personally, I believe that strategic national infrastructure (water, energy supply, roads etc.) should be planned & owned by the country but I am quite open to private enterprise running those assets.
Even nationalised energy companies would still have to buy in gas etc. at global wholesale rates though (until the day that we can generate all the power that we need without hydrocarbons) ...

We couldn’t afford to pay for it in a generation. Even buying the remaining 15.9% of EDF that it doesn’t already own, is going to cost the French Government over £8Bn. Looking at my water provider, Severn Trent, it has a market valuation of over £6Bn. Taking over a company requires a much bigger payment.

Nationalised industries are not the panacea that people might think. Just look at our much-loved NHS: it is a badly run bureaucratic nightmare which has health outcomes far worse than the health services in other countries. It is reluctant to change because it has no direct competition. The other problem, which lead to the privatisation of the energy and water sectors in the first place, is that they rely on Government investment. When politicians are after votes, these sectors tend to get neglected in favour of my grandiose schemes.

I said that it was a belief, I did not say that it was achievable given where we are. & if you were to go down that route it doesn't have to be within a generation but UK politics/politicians are too short-term minded for it.
If you were nationalising you could decide to pay at purely asset value (theoretically, you wouldn't have to pay at all you could just take it over but that would make you extremely unpopular with investors large & small), you would not have to pay market valuation (of course that too would have a negative effect on future investment).

& that is why I am open to private companies running country-owned assets. The NHS definitely has issues (I have family & friends that work within it as probably most of us do) but whilst it  has health outcomes worse than some countries (& better than others) it tends to cost less than those with better so if we wish it to improve it needs more money. & again political interference comes into the picture.
Of course, you also only have to look at the USA to see that more money & private companies is not necessarily the solution either ...

markin

China's Catastrophic Oil & Gas Problem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISHHe1Hu6d4

Inigo_Montoya

article in the daily mail today about someone suggesting the government should price cap north sea oil & gas 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11151763/EXCLUSIVE-Energy-bosss-plan-save-1-000-bills-cap-huge-oil-gas-profits.html

nekr0mantik

how do you explain UK having the biggest increase in energy in the G7.

the war affects Europe as well but highest increase before October price cap over there was 41% only compared to over 200% over here.

[Deleted User]

We can't import so much electricity from other countries, we don't have enough cables for that.

We have to import gas and burn it to make the electricity.  More competition for buying gas, so its price has gone up faster.

Plus some other political policy things, like choosing when to defer costs to.