Heating the house: radiators & multi fuel stoves

B0bbyEwing

QrizB said:

B0bbyEwing said:

So yeah, it's more efficient loose than in bulk bags but the basis is the exact same - I would still be looking at comparing the price of paid for wood vs central heating instead of the situation I've got now. It's just that it'd be cheaper than in bagged form.

We discussed this on the "other fuels" sub-forum last winter.

Try this thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6332445/firewood-price-guide/p1

If dry logs contain 4kWh/kg, and gas is 15p/kWh, your target price for dry logs is under 60p/kg. If a cubic metre of dry logs weighs 300kg, that's £180 per cubic metre.

I appreciate the break down, genuinely I do.

But be that as it may, right now it's a no brainer for me. Free wood, be it bone dry or soaking wet is free wood & is cheaper than a central heating setup.

The question comes when I've paid for logs. If I buy 50 logs for £50 then that's £1/log whether it's dry or wet. 

What doesn't help is my fire rips through wood for fun which is annoying. I think it might be due to <something - not sure what> being inserted inside which IIRC was due to being in a smoke controlled zone which basically means I can't fully close the top vent - so it's always somewhat open.
My mothers fire on the other hand, she can totally close both her bottom & top vents. As a result, a single log can take a long while to burn on her fire so she doesn't go through wood anywhere near as fast as I do. She can have her fire on for longer in the day than me yet use less logs. If I want to stop this then I have to use coal. 

Bit of a silly question on the way but is my central heating setup likely to be gas or electric?

There's an electric switch to the boiler yet you hear the term "gas central heating". So I was wondering what the primary fuel was with it. I'd assume gas but I don't want to assume.

But then that still leaves me at not really knowing what it costs to heat the house in a day. I know there's variables with this. I may be heating from 0c, I may be heating from 15c, I may have it set to hit 25c or 20c. So if we just plucked numbers out of the sky:

If the rooms temp was 13c and I wanted to heat to 19c. I started the heating at 6pm & turned it off at 9pm (and somewhere between those times it hit 19c). Let's say all the rads were set to a mixture of 3 & 4 on the TRV, or even just all 3s for consistency.

I don't know what that'd cost. Knowing my unit cost is all well & good but I can come on here & say how much does my kettle cost & you guys tell me because it has a power rating in the manual & you guys work your magic & spit out a £cost. 

But with the radiators/central heating, I don't know.

[Deleted User]

All gas boilers require an electricity supply to power the electronics; provide the ignition spark; power the fan and the pump (if built in).

As I said in an earlier post, trying to calculate your gas usage/cost is a fool’s errand as there are so many variables: the outside air temperature; the inside temperature that you set; how long the CH is timed to be on; the efficiency of your boiler, and whether you are running the boiler efficiently to name but a few.

A smart meter can help you monitor your costs. This is a daily cost page from the App BRIGHT. BRIGHT uses actual usage and tariff information taken from the meter:



A word of caution. Running a woodstove with wet/damp logs may give you a short-term cost saving; however, you are massively increasing the risk of a chimney fire. Low temperature wood burning leads to a build up of creosote in the relatively cold chimney. Creosote flows down the chimney towards the stove. It looks like black glass when it goes solid, and it is difficult to remove when the chimney is swept. The solution to getting rid of creosote deposits is a high temperature burn with very dry wood.

Effician

B0bbyEwing said:

QrizB said:

B0bbyEwing said:

So yeah, it's more efficient loose than in bulk bags but the basis is the exact same - I would still be looking at comparing the price of paid for wood vs central heating instead of the situation I've got now. It's just that it'd be cheaper than in bagged form.

We discussed this on the "other fuels" sub-forum last winter.

Try this thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6332445/firewood-price-guide/p1

If dry logs contain 4kWh/kg, and gas is 15p/kWh, your target price for dry logs is under 60p/kg. If a cubic metre of dry logs weighs 300kg, that's £180 per cubic metre.

What doesn't help is my fire rips through wood for fun which is annoying. I think it might be due to <something - not sure what> being inserted inside which IIRC was due to being in a smoke controlled zone which basically means I can't fully close the top vent - so it's always somewhat open.
My mothers fire on the other hand, she can totally close both her bottom & top vents. As a result, a single log can take a long while to burn on her fire so she doesn't go through wood anywhere near as fast as I do. She can have her fire on for longer in the day than me yet use less logs. If I want to stop this then I have to use coal. 

You have a DEFRA approved stove  which as you say doesn't allow the complete shut off of the secondary air ( top vent for you), this is to prevent slumbering of the wood & helps in the reduction of smoke & pollutants. Unfortunately this is a simplistic approach which also creates a couple of other problems , 

1) if the stove is not used & the house is warm from other heating you can say goodbye to some of the heat as it disappears up the flue ( unless stove is fed by direct air  from outside). 

 2) Smokeless coal doesn't like secondary air which in the case of a defra spec stove can't be stopped,  & in our case with a too high draw on the secondary even when closed makes smokeless  a poor choice. Some folks seem to get away with it & make it work but i guess this is stove & individual set up dependent.

B0bbyEwing

Effician said:

2) Smokeless coal doesn't like secondary air which in the case of a defra spec stove can't be stopped,  & in our case with a too high draw on the secondary even when closed makes smokeless  a poor choice. Some folks seem to get away with it & make it work but i guess this is stove & individual set up dependent.

What do you mean it "doesn't like" it?

I've used smokeless coal in this fire before. Can't remember if it maybe took a bit longer to get it really burning or not. I have a bag of proper coal anyway that I'd just been putting about a shovel to a shovel & half on at the start to get a bed. Helps me not go through so much wood.

I imagine removing this whatever is it to enable me to close off the vent isn't really an option?

I'm talking from a forgetting air zones angle. Clearly - since I have proper coal anyway.

B0bbyEwing

Dolor said:

All gas boilers require an electricity supply to power the electronics; provide the ignition spark; power the fan and the pump (if built in).

As I said in an earlier post, trying to calculate your gas usage/cost is a fool’s errand as there are so many variables: the outside air temperature; the inside temperature that you set; how long the CH is timed to be on; the efficiency of your boiler, and whether you are running the boiler efficiently to name but a few.

A smart meter can help you monitor your costs. This is a daily cost page from the App BRIGHT. BRIGHT uses actual usage and tariff information taken from the meter:



A word of caution. Running a woodstove with wet/damp logs may give you a short-term cost saving; however, you are massively increasing the risk of a chimney fire. Low temperature wood burning leads to a build up of creosote in the relatively cold chimney. Creosote flows down the chimney towards the stove. It looks like black glass when it goes solid, and it is difficult to remove when the chimney is swept. The solution to getting rid of creosote deposits is a high temperature burn with very dry wood.

Thanks - couple things here.

I thought smart meters were them things you plug in which tell you basically when you power that kettle up it just cost you £1. From reading this forum, I found that isn't apparently what a smart meter is. That's just a display to tell you what you're using. Smart meters just send off your readings to the supplier. 
If what I've read is correct.

So if those display things tell you what electricity you used, what do you buy to tell you how much gas you're using & how do they work?
Since those displays I'm referring to get plugged in to the electrical system so I can understand how it tells you about electricity usage, but not gas.


Also, I've 30+ years of fire use. Now while I'm not meaning that in a chest out braggy I know everything stance, I'm saying it as though I've a bit more real world experience than someone who's never used a fire before (I'm coming off the back of your massively increasing line here).
And on that note - you should've seen the stuff that got thrown on the original fire (Raeburn Rhapsody I think it was called) we had at my parents. It'd have you phoning the environmental agencies. Everything that would appear on the "don't" list must've got burned at one time or another including things to get the fire going. Doesn't really happen any more with the new fire though I do know crap has been thrown on it (not literal but you get me).
And nothing happened in all that time.

Now while I'm not saying that it's impossible for something to happen, I just wonder from actual personal experience how massively "massively increasing" actually is - because it never happened with everything that got thrown at it.

B0bbyEwing

[Deleted User] said:

A combination boiler is usually a condensing boiler. Condensing boilers are only truly efficient if they are condensing: that is, the water returning to the boiler must be at a temperature of 56C or less. The lower the return temperature the higher the efficiency. High efficiency equals less usage of gas. Look at the graph: if the return temperature is 56C then your boiler will be 87% efficient. If you can tolerate a boiler flow temperature of 50C and the return temperature is 30C, then your boiler efficiency increases to c.96%.  If your return flow temperature is above 56C, then this is above the Dew Point and no condensation can occur.

The problem with turning off most of the radiators is that your large heating system becomes a very small heating system. The water from your boiler returns at almost the same temperature as it left so little condensing occurs so your boiler is inefficient. 

My comment about 21C outside and 21C inside is that your heating requirement varies as the difference between the inside and outside temperatures increases. If the outside temperature is 10C, you will use a lot less energy to heat your home to 21C than you would if the outside temperature was minus 2C.

I live in a 4 bedroomed house and we have the heating on from 7am to 9pm with a boiler temperature of between 55 and 65C (higher if it is very cold). I adjust the boiler flow temperature manually but you can buy a weather compensation device. Our TRVs are set at 2 in unused rooms and 3 elsewhere with thermostats set at 19C. Our gas usage over the last 12 months was 7639kWh.

The ‘blast through the summer’ reference is your plumber’s way of telling you that zone valves and TRVs have a habit of sticking when they are not used. It is always good practice to turn up the thermostat once a month.

Finally, if radiators are slow to heat up then it could be down to a build up of sludge in the radiators. Water contains air, and air and metal cause rust. Check the colour of the water that comes out of a vent plug. If it is dirty, then you need to drain your system; refill it with water and a cleaner; flush, and refill with water and an inhibitor. If there is a leak present, then each time you top up the boiler pressure, you are introducing more air into the system.

Sorry I didn't catch this earlier this morning as I was in a bit of a dash to get on a job. Thanks for the reply.

To address in order:

Thanks for clearing up the question about turning some rads off. That helps.

Also I wondered whether the guy was talking rubbish. Handy to know he's not as I'd actually been acting on what he said. Out of interest, how long do you advise giving it a run for once a month?
So say you're in July, it's pretty warm. Inside may say 20c on the thermostat. I'll then turn it to say 23c which it'll get to fairly easily & then that's it. Not all that long.

I do know that when they fitted the Adey Magnaclean, the radiators needed banging. I wasn't in on the job as I was at work at the time but I'm sure my wife said it was like them massage guns that are becoming popular at the moment - they'd be pumelling these radiators freeing them up.

Anyway, as the pressure drops over the months & I need to re-pressurize it, a couple things:

1) I add inhibitor when I do
2) When I dose through the Magnaclean pot, there isn't really much sludge if any at all on the magnet. This last time there was a bit more than usual but barely anything. Also the water isn't really dirty either.

Effician

B0bbyEwing said:

Effician said:

2) Smokeless coal doesn't like secondary air which in the case of a defra spec stove can't be stopped,  & in our case with a too high draw on the secondary even when closed makes smokeless  a poor choice. Some folks seem to get away with it & make it work but i guess this is stove & individual set up dependent.

What do you mean it "doesn't like" it?

I've used smokeless coal in this fire before. Can't remember if it maybe took a bit longer to get it really burning or not. I have a bag of proper coal anyway that I'd just been putting about a shovel to a shovel & half on at the start to get a bed. Helps me not go through so much wood.

I imagine removing this whatever is it to enable me to close off the vent isn't really an option?

I'm talking from a forgetting air zones angle. Clearly - since I have proper coal anyway.

Coal of any type burns best when air is fed from below, if you try and slumber or tick over a coal fire by restricting the air from below in a defra approved stove you then start to increase the air as a percentage to the top of the coals, this causes the coal to burn at the top of the coal pile & ash to build up creating a smothering effect , this is also the reason not to burn wood on top of coals.

Many people will say wood on coal is fine & it's worked for them for years ( daughter is a prime example ) but i suspect it's more to do with ease of keeping a fire going rather than an efficient way of burning.

Removing the whatever could probably be done but really depends on your skill level or maybe just buy a proper coal burning stove.

I find it hard to defend any use of old style house coal in a modern  multifuel stove even if in a non smoke free area ,if you have a flue liner it's going to get bunged up pdq, not to mention the pollution aspect from burning it inefficiently in a defra approved stove.

macman

You know how much gas you are using and what it's costing by reading your gas meter. Easier with a smart meter, but not essential. Just convert the volume reading from the meter (cu m or 100's cu ft) to kWh (google for the formula). Then multiply by your unit rate.

QrizB

Effician said:

I find it hard to defend any use of old style house coal in a modern  multifuel stove even if in a non smoke free area

It either has been banned from sale, or will shortly be banned. (There are one or two exceptions but, in general, you'll only find smokeless fuel on sale.)

B0bbyEwing

Effician said:

Coal of any type burns best when air is fed from below, if you try and slumber or tick over a coal fire by restricting the air from below in a defra approved stove you then start to increase the air as a percentage to the top of the coals, this causes the coal to burn at the top of the coal pile & ash to build up creating a smothering effect , this is also the reason not to burn wood on top of coals.

Many people will say wood on coal is fine & it's worked for them for years ( daughter is a prime example ) but i suspect it's more to do with ease of keeping a fire going rather than an efficient way of burning.

Removing the whatever could probably be done but really depends on your skill level or maybe just buy a proper coal burning stove.

I find it hard to defend any use of old style house coal in a modern  multifuel stove even if in a non smoke free area ,if you have a flue liner it's going to get bunged up pdq, not to mention the pollution aspect from burning it inefficiently in a defra approved stove.

Thanks for the info. Makes sense when someone points it out.

Regards the line you put in where your daughter is a prime example - yes from my viewpoint it is certainly from a keeping it going approach.
Up until now I've not really had to consider efficiency as I haven't had need to care for it with the wood being free. I've been able to be choosy over what wood I acquire as well.

It's a cert that I'll no longer be able to be choosy, which will mean taking in scraps. I begrudge paying for logs so for the time being I'll hold off as long as I can and see how the stock goes this winter but if by the end of it it's taken a serious beating then I'll need to buy in in advance. 

I built (I say built, more banged a few pieces of wood together) a fair sized log store so I should be able to hoard a reasonable amount.
While that may suggest I have some skill in order to remove this thing in the fire, I'm actually more skilled in damaging things than anything else so I'll just have to leave it with a gap. 

I get your final point but I question how Q in PDQ it will get bunged up. I realise I said I put about a shovel load on but thinking about it, my mothers shovel is quite large whereas mine isn't. I had been burning once or twice per week so I'd question that. 

BUT

I've actually had to pay for the coal whereas I've not had to pay for the wood. Was just really to see what difference it made. 1 bag has lasted me a long time.