Car rental refused for having an EU license

ontheroad1970

DanDare999 said:

TooManyPoints said:

You can be prosecuted for driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence,...it's the same offence

No it isn't.

If your photocard has expired you still have a licence. Your entitlement to drive (and any conditions you must comply with to drive) do not alter. Failing to renew your photocard at ten years is a separate offence and it does not invalidate your licence. The offence is contrary to RTA s99(5).

On the back of your DL you will find the actual expiry date (usually one's 70th birthday). Confusingly, the licence also contains a "licence valid until" date (which is the date the photocard expires). The two things are different and carry different penalties. The other big difference is that police officers are empowered to seize a vehicle being driven by someone with an expired licence. They are not empowered to do so when it is being driven by someone with an expired photocard. Explained properly here:

Legislation: Expired photos do not invalidate driving licences, Fleet News Blog | Opinion

Yeah, driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence. 

What makes you say that?  Any particular experience in the emergency services?

DanDare999

[Deleted User] said:

DanDare999 said:

TooManyPoints said:

You can be prosecuted for driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence,...it's the same offence

No it isn't.

If your photocard has expired you still have a licence. Your entitlement to drive (and any conditions you must comply with to drive) do not alter. Failing to renew your photocard at ten years is a separate offence and it does not invalidate your licence. The offence is contrary to RTA s99(5).

On the back of your DL you will find the actual expiry date (usually one's 70th birthday). Confusingly, the licence also contains a "licence valid until" date (which is the date the photocard expires). The two things are different and carry different penalties. The other big difference is that police officers are empowered to seize a vehicle being driven by someone with an expired licence. They are not empowered to do so when it is being driven by someone with an expired photocard. Explained properly here:

Legislation: Expired photos do not invalidate driving licences, Fleet News Blog | Opinion

Yeah, driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence. 

Quite the reverse.

As explained in that link, "The actual offence committed is failing to notify DVLA of up-to-date information, contrary to s.99.5 of the Road Traffic Act. Not, as has been suggested, ‘driving otherwise than in accordance with a driving licence’."

Would you be driving in accordance with the conditions of your licence if you failed to notify? No, that's why there is a non endorsable offence of driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence. 

Car_54

DanDare999 said:

[Deleted User] said:

DanDare999 said:

TooManyPoints said:

You can be prosecuted for driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence,...it's the same offence

No it isn't.

If your photocard has expired you still have a licence. Your entitlement to drive (and any conditions you must comply with to drive) do not alter. Failing to renew your photocard at ten years is a separate offence and it does not invalidate your licence. The offence is contrary to RTA s99(5).

On the back of your DL you will find the actual expiry date (usually one's 70th birthday). Confusingly, the licence also contains a "licence valid until" date (which is the date the photocard expires). The two things are different and carry different penalties. The other big difference is that police officers are empowered to seize a vehicle being driven by someone with an expired licence. They are not empowered to do so when it is being driven by someone with an expired photocard. Explained properly here:

Legislation: Expired photos do not invalidate driving licences, Fleet News Blog | Opinion

Yeah, driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence. 

Quite the reverse.

As explained in that link, "The actual offence committed is failing to notify DVLA of up-to-date information, contrary to s.99.5 of the Road Traffic Act. Not, as has been suggested, ‘driving otherwise than in accordance with a driving licence’."

Would you be driving in accordance with the conditions of your licence if you failed to notify? No, that's why there is a non endorsable offence of driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence. 

1. That linked quote is from a specialist traffic law solicitor. Several other lawyers' websites give the same advice. No offence, but I prefer to believe them rather than an anonymous internet poster.

2. Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence IS in fact endorsable: 3-6 points, or even disqualification. Failing to notify DVLA is not.

Rover_Driver

That is a different offence - s.87(2), Road Traffic Act 1988. As in earlier posts, the 'valid to' date is shown on the back of  photocard licences, that is not affected by the requirement to update the photo, which is an administrative matter - as above, s.99(5) of the same act.

DanDare999

[Deleted User] said:

DanDare999 said:

[Deleted User] said:

DanDare999 said:

TooManyPoints said:

You can be prosecuted for driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence,...it's the same offence

No it isn't.

If your photocard has expired you still have a licence. Your entitlement to drive (and any conditions you must comply with to drive) do not alter. Failing to renew your photocard at ten years is a separate offence and it does not invalidate your licence. The offence is contrary to RTA s99(5).

On the back of your DL you will find the actual expiry date (usually one's 70th birthday). Confusingly, the licence also contains a "licence valid until" date (which is the date the photocard expires). The two things are different and carry different penalties. The other big difference is that police officers are empowered to seize a vehicle being driven by someone with an expired licence. They are not empowered to do so when it is being driven by someone with an expired photocard. Explained properly here:

Legislation: Expired photos do not invalidate driving licences, Fleet News Blog | Opinion

Yeah, driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence. 

Quite the reverse.

As explained in that link, "The actual offence committed is failing to notify DVLA of up-to-date information, contrary to s.99.5 of the Road Traffic Act. Not, as has been suggested, ‘driving otherwise than in accordance with a driving licence’."

Would you be driving in accordance with the conditions of your licence if you failed to notify? No, that's why there is a non endorsable offence of driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence. 

1. That linked quote is from a specialist traffic law solicitor. Several other lawyers' websites give the same advice. No offence, but I prefer to believe them rather than an anonymous internet poster.

2. Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence IS in fact endorsable: 3-6 points, or even disqualification. Failing to notify DVLA is not.

Not on every occasion.

Drive a Motor Vehicle Otherwise than in Accordance with a Licence – Non-endorsable Offence

CJS Offence Code: RT88507

Standard Offence Wording
On **(..SPECIFY DATE..) at **(..SPECIFY TOWNSHIP..) drove a motor vehicle, namely **(..SPECIFY VEHICLE MAKE AND INDEX NUMBER..) on a road, namely **(..SPECIFY ROAD AND LOCATION..), otherwise than in accordance with a licence authorising you to drive a motor vehicle of that class in circumstances where your driving would have been in accordance with any licence that could have been granted to you, namely **(..SPECIFY THE CIRCUMSTANCES – DO NOT CONFUSE THIS OFFENCE WITH THE ENDORSEABLE OFFENCE..)

Legislation
Contrary to section 87(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.

Home Office Classification
807/02

This offence carries a fine of £50 and no penalty points.

For comprehensive information regarding this offence, please log in to PNLD.

TooManyPoints

The non-endorseable offence you mention (made out by s87(1) RTA) is charged when a person drives without a licence but would have been entitled to such a licence had he bothered to apply for one or renew an expired one. It has nothing to do with an expired photo-card. Note the wording from the passage you quoted:

"...otherwise than in accordance with a licence authorising you to drive a motor vehicle of that class in circumstances where your driving would have been in accordance with any licence that could have been granted to you," [my emphasis]

It is distinct from the endorseable offence of driving otherwise in accordance with a licence (which includes driving without 'L' plates etc.) where the driver would not be entitled to such a licence (for example, if he had not passed a test but was driving without 'L' plates etc.).

The difficulty you are having here is that you are confusing a driving licence (i.e. an entitlement to drive certain vehicles) with the physical photocard. Holding a licence does not mean physically possessing a card or piece of paper. It means being granted an entitlement to drive for a specific period (usually to age 70 for most people) by the DVLA. A licence holder holds a licence even if he has lost the card. His entitlement to drive does not end if he drops his photocard down the drain. He could not be convicted of driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence (under either the endorseable or non-endorseable offence) because he is a licence holder. Similarly when a photocard expires the holder does not suddenly cease to be a licence holder. His entitlement to drive remains. He could only be convicted of the specific offence of failing to renew the photocard.

That's about the best I can do to explain it and I believe the motoring barrister I provided the link to does a better job than me. However, if you choose to suggest both of us are wrong, that's your privilege.

macman

I still think this is an ID check and not a passport issue. Presumably the OP's European DL is registered at his old EU address and doesn't carry a UK address. 
OP needs to clarify, if they ever come back.

jake_jones99

Sorry the discussion degenerated into something fully off-topic, i.e. driving with an expired licence. Meanwhile I got the car!
The guy at the rental looked for loopholes until he found one: apparently on the house of commons website he found a law saying that if my licence expires while I'm a resident in the UK I should not renew it in the EU. I did renew it last year in my home country. Clearly a very weak argument to stop someone from driving. Nevertheless he gave me the car and was friendly at the end. Comparing this with his first reaction "I can't give you the car and I'm not gonna argue about it", it was some change.

In the end, for anyone reading this post, they may pick on you and try to deter you from using an EU licence, but they can't legally stop you! If you ever meet anyone else in my situation please let them know. I will however change my licence on the first opportunity, as this was an unpleasant experience that gave me a restless night.

Car_54

jake_jones99 said:

Sorry the discussion degenerated into something fully off-topic, i.e. driving with an expired licence. Meanwhile I got the car!
The guy at the rental looked for loopholes until he found one: apparently on the house of commons website he found a law saying that if my licence expires while I'm a resident in the UK I should not renew it in the EU. I did renew it last year in my home country. Clearly a very weak argument to stop someone from driving. Nevertheless he gave me the car and was friendly at the end. Comparing this with his first reaction "I can't give you the car and I'm not gonna argue about it", it was some change.

In the end, for anyone reading this post, they may pick on you and try to deter you from using an EU licence, but they can't legally stop you! If you ever meet anyone else in my situation please let them know. I will however change my licence on the first opportunity, as this was an unpleasant experience that gave me a restless night.

Glad it ended well.

What branch was it? I hope it's not somewhere that sees many oversees visitors!

jake_jones99

[Deleted User] said:

jake_jones99 said:

Sorry the discussion degenerated into something fully off-topic, i.e. driving with an expired licence. Meanwhile I got the car!
The guy at the rental looked for loopholes until he found one: apparently on the house of commons website he found a law saying that if my licence expires while I'm a resident in the UK I should not renew it in the EU. I did renew it last year in my home country. Clearly a very weak argument to stop someone from driving. Nevertheless he gave me the car and was friendly at the end. Comparing this with his first reaction "I can't give you the car and I'm not gonna argue about it", it was some change.

In the end, for anyone reading this post, they may pick on you and try to deter you from using an EU licence, but they can't legally stop you! If you ever meet anyone else in my situation please let them know. I will however change my licence on the first opportunity, as this was an unpleasant experience that gave me a restless night.

Glad it ended well.

What branch was it? I hope it's not somewhere that sees many oversees visitors!

Thanks! I'd rather not reveal my location, but I think the guy at the desk will now think twice before rejecting an EU licence. Anyway, it could happen to any branch, I contacted Hertz customer support on this issue and they said "unfortunately we do require an international license". So it seems a Hertz policy to deter Europeans from using their cars.