energy bills - a suggestion

pochase

Why do you think only customers who have storage heaters need to be subsidised? 

The percentage increase for the gas price since October 2021 to the predicted new cap is much higher than the increase for electricity.

Section62

brewerdave said:

But the major issue would be the metering of night use and changes to wiring for the heaters not so much heater supply.

Smart meters are supposed to be able to do this.

Maybe if there was a bit more focus on making the existing smart meters work as intended, and less effort on hassling uninterested people to have them fitted....

[Deleted User]

Max68 said:

It's a pity that there doesn't seem to be a heater that is as economical as a pedestal fan, unless someone can correct me.  In this hot weather I have been running one pretty much 24/7 and I was originally concerned on usage but they incredibly use next to nothing, even using for many hours a day.  

Heaters are usually MORE economical than a pedestal fan.  The percentage of the electricity put in that gets turned into heat is very high, whereas in a fan you have electricity "wasted" in heating the motor, rotating things, vibrating things etc.

The difference is that your pedestal fan is probably about 50W - a 50W heater would be useless.

nottsphil

The difference is that your pedestal fan is probably about 50W - a 50W heater would be useless.

Not in an electric blanket it's not! In fact for me, that's the cheapest way of keeping warm on evenings during the heating season (on the sofa with a hollow fibre quilt over me) 

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User said:

Max68 said:

It's a pity that there doesn't seem to be a heater that is as economical as a pedestal fan, unless someone can correct me.  In this hot weather I have been running one pretty much 24/7 and I was originally concerned on usage but they incredibly use next to nothing, even using for many hours a day.  

Heaters are usually MORE economical than a pedestal fan.  The percentage of the electricity put in that gets turned into heat is very high, whereas in a fan you have electricity "wasted" in heating the motor, rotating things, vibrating things etc.

The difference is that your pedestal fan is probably about 50W - a 50W heater would be useless.

They are all exactly the in terms of the percentage of electricity "put in" that gets turned to heat - 100% in all cases.

A 50-watt pedestal fan will use 50 watts of electricity and give 50 watts of heat out to your room - 100% efficient.
A 2000 watt fan heater will use 2000 watts of electricity and give 2000 watts of heat out to your room - 100% efficient.

If you put 40x 50-watt pedestal fans in your room, they would consume exactly 2kWh and produce exactly 2kWh of heat for the room - exactly the same as running a single 2kW fan heater. (Except the noise of 40 fans would probably be unbearable).

And just for reference, a 2kW oil filled radiator would be exactly the same, a 2kW light bulb or in fact almost any 2kW electrical device you can imagine (exceptions being say a heat pump with an external vapouriser or a battery charger where the energy is stored in the battery instead).

If you are being really picky about the 100% efficiency thing, light from a bulb that gets absorbed by house plants and used for photosynthesis won't end up as heat for example, but otherwise, the 100% rule holds good.

Northern_Wanderer

EssexHebridean said:

Northern_Wanderer said:

This might be good if you are a shift worker but who wants to pay for heat during the night when it's not needed and be cold during the day plus pay a premium for day rate?

That's not the way storage heaters work... the clue here can be found in the word "storage". 

brewerdave said:

Northern_Wanderer said:

This might be good if you are a shift worker but who wants to pay for heat during the night when it's not needed and be cold during the day plus pay a premium for day rate?

Night storage heaters were designed to store heat during the night on cheap rate electricity then release the heat during daylight hours.

Yes I know, and they might be fine if you live in southern parts of the UK but in the much colder northern parts of the UK all your heat has run out by next afternoon/ evening and the house is cold. That's the main reason Scottish Hydro Electric (now SSE) invented THTC so that the heat was boosted three times in a 24 hour period. But obviously nobody wants to be stuck with a supplier where the only "control" you have on your usage is the OFF button.

So, the idea of dumping everyone on storage heaters/ economy 7 is outdated and would require a complete overhall of these types of tariffs. Also, what you gain in cheaper electric at night means quite extortionate rates for all your day rate usage and generally higher SC as well.

The Scottish Government was still installing gas central heating under the ECO grant schemes a couple of years ago to get people out of fuel poverty due to night storage heaters. I'm not sure if they still are due to carbon zero targets and forthcoming legislation that will prohibit the installation of gas boilers.

QrizB

Northern_Wanderer said:

Yes I know, and they might be fine if you live in southern parts of the UK but in the much colder northern parts of the UK all your heat has run out by next afternoon/ evening and the house is cold.

That's only true if your storage heater is undersized (not helped if your property is underinsulated).

And that's the main challenge with swapping from THTC / E10 / Flexiheat or whatever to E7; you may find that the storage heaters currently fitted are too small to last the 17 hours during the day.

However, there's nothing that prevents correctly-sized storage heaters working in the Frozen North.

Max68

Just checked the pedestal fan is a 60 watt.  Running 24 hours a day probably used about two units of electricity according to my meter.  Obviously didn't cool the air but the breeze made it easier to sleep. So the question is can anything that gives out heat be economical like that?  Would an electric heater running hours at a time or an oil filled radiator be cheaper than heating the home with gas central heating?! 

sienew

Max68 said:

Just checked the pedestal fan is a 60 watt.  Running 24 hours a day probably used about two units of electricity according to my meter.  Obviously didn't cool the air but the breeze made it easier to sleep. So the question is can anything that gives out heat be economical like that?  Would an electric heater running hours at a time or an oil filled radiator be cheaper than heating the home with gas central heating?! 

No. Gas central heating is the most efficient/cheapest ways to heat a house. 

Electric blankets are very cheap to run but for most people not a real replacement for a heating system.

MWT

Max68 said:

Just checked the pedestal fan is a 60 watt.  Running 24 hours a day probably used about two units of electricity according to my meter.  Obviously didn't cool the air but the breeze made it easier to sleep. So the question is can anything that gives out heat be economical like that?  Would an electric heater running hours at a time or an oil filled radiator be cheaper than heating the home with gas central heating?! 

No, your 60W fan used 1.44kWh over a 24 hour period, a 2kW heater would use 2kWh in one hour of use...

With any type of resistive heater, the heat it gives out is directly linked to the energy it consumes, if you want more heat it takes more energy...