Canceling building work

Aylesbury_Duck

nowhereboy said:

Ive read the legislation and a few articles about this. On legal websites it states if a quote is given after a visit in which the consumer takes time to decide its considered onsite, however if the consumer “immediately agrees” to the quote its considered offsite. The example given for it to be considered onsite was if the quote is left with the customer and the customer takes up the offer months later. That didn’t happen here. 

we immediately agreed on receipt of the text message following a visit to our home.    

To me this is sounding like a grey area hence the mixed responses in here. 

Link?  That sounds odd.  

As I understand it, the builder can sue for his reasonable costs.  Whether he'd be successful is another matter, but if, for example, he can't return the door he bought on your behalf, what's he supposed to do with it?  Just swallow the cost?  Even though you've cancelled the contract because you can't afford to incur cost?

Exactly how is he being nasty and making threats?  Any substance to that, or are you just embellishing what were perhaps pretty firm communications from a justifiably annoyed trader?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

nowhereboy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ectophile said:

What I think the others have missed is that the business has failed to provide any information on how the buyer may cancel the contract.  In the absence of that information, the business hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Businesses are supposed to provide written details of the consumer's cancellation rights when making a contract.

Yes goods ordered at a distance or with an off-premises contract come with the right to cancel as do services.

No info means 1 year and 14 days to cancel.

Exception would be where the trader visits your home and leaves a quote, etc for you to agree to later which is classed as on-premises. With on-premises there is no right to cancel and whilst certain info must be given it doesn't have to be durable. 

OP advise the trader in writing you are cancelling your contract for both the goods and the service as per the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 and if they wish to issue small claims the legislation will support your position. 

Thanks. Let me be specific to avoid any confusion.

Builder attended our home and said he’d get back to us with a price. He messaged later that day via whatsapp with a figure. We agreed to the price, he gave us a date and said he’d be in touch to arrange a specific time of arrival etc. Until todays request to cancel, we hadn’t spoke since then. This means both ourselves and the builder have a copy of this. 

Would this be classed as an offsite purchase? 

Thanks OP, I generally go with the below site for guidance which states. 

https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/on-premises-sales/consumer-contracts-on-premises-sales

Traders that visit a consumer in their home and leave a quotation (or send one to them later), allowing them to decide and enter into a contract when they are ready to do so, will be entering into an 'on-premises contract'. This is because this transaction does not fall within the definition of an 'off-premises contract' unless the consumer agrees to the contract immediately after the trader has left their home, nor is it a 'distance contract'. This is important for many home improvements businesses that work in this way and will, therefore, fall under the requirements for on-premises contracts. This means that businesses selling in these circumstances only have to provide the information listed in this guide (rather than the larger list for off-premises contracts) and do not have to give cancellation rights. However, if your business uses this approach you must remember that you will be entering into off-premises contracts in those situations when you visit your customer and agree a contract there and then. 

The part in bold is something I didn't know and unfortunately it would appear you have an on-premises contract with no right to cancel.

Further down at that link is details on what information must be provided and if it hasn't been the consumer isn't bound by the contract but the information doesn't have to be in writing. If you felt you could articulate on the balance of probability that the trader hadn't given that info this would mean you aren't bound by the contract.

Unfair terms also come into play with this kind of situation for example:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf

Part 1 of Schedule 2 states that the following may be unfair:

(4) A term which has the object or effect of permitting the trader to

retain sums paid by the consumer where the consumer decides

not to conclude or perform the contract, without providing for the

consumer to receive compensation of an equivalent amount from

the trader where the trader is the party cancelling the contract.

The points under 5.13 and 5.14 give more details on what may be unfair and specifically mention the trader isn't entitled to losses that could reasonably be saved by, for example, finding another customer but that may be tricky for a garage door unless that is what the trader specialises in. 

Is the builder only asking for the cost of the door or anything further such as labour? How much was the door? 

If the builder were to take you to small claims they should send a letter before filing to notify you of their intentions, if they fail to do so then, my understanding is, this may affect whether they are awarded costs.

For a claim of up to £1500 the filing fee is £80 which if you paid before it went any further isn't a massive cost but you should consider the fact that you don't want to be lumbered with a garage door and no one to fit it. 

It seems to be a case of coming down to technical aspects that may or may not apply and as there isn't a requirement for the information to be given in writing that may make it more difficult to demonstrate (on the balance of probability). 

One option would be to ask if the trader can cancel their order for the door and what the cancellation fee would be if anything, as an example, if the door is £500 and it's 20% you may want to cut your loses/save the headache and cover this cost to be done with the matter   

macman

nowhereboy said:

Thanks. 

In my line of work we’d be in breach of the contract if we didn’t make the customer aware of the cancelation rights or the fact they were entering into a contract. We’d also secure a deposit and issue documents. 

Had I been made aware of any of this stuff prior I’d have known where I stood in advance. 

Surely the fact I didn’t know we had a contract, along with the fact we have not paid a deposit counts for something?

I understand its rubbish to cancel a couple of weeks prior, I get it. That said everyone has to do what they have to do to get by at the moment. 

So at what point exactly did you think that a contract would be formed? On the day he turned up to start the work? Not knowing that a contract was made does not void the contract.
If I go to the corner shop and ask for a newspaper, then I'm forming a contract at that point, but I don't expect the shopkeeper to present me with a set of terms and conditions to sign before he'll sell me the paper.
Some contractors will issue a proper contract and ask for a deposit, but it's not compulsory. A lo of major building works commence on little more than a few text messages and a site visit, just like yours.
I'd suggest that your priority is to find out whether the door has actually been ordered or paid for. If it has, you are obliged to pay for it, and he is obliged to supply it to you. What you do with it then is not his problem. 

Undervalued

nowhereboy said:

Thanks. 

In my line of work we’d be in breach of the contract if we didn’t make the customer aware of the cancelation rights or the fact they were entering into a contract. We’d also secure a deposit and issue documents. 

Had I been made aware of any of this stuff prior I’d have known where I stood in advance. 

Surely the fact I didn’t know we had a contract, along with the fact we have not paid a deposit counts for something?

I understand its rubbish to cancel a couple of weeks prior, I get it. That said everyone has to do what they have to do to get by at the moment. 

Sorry but ignorance of the law is no excuse!

Very few things in English law have to be written and / or signed to be binding. Nor does it have to be labelled a "contract". A contract is formed by offer and acceptance. That has happened and is confirmed by your WhatsApp exchange.

If you break the contract the builder can make a claim for his losses. He has a legal duty to make reasonable efforts to minimise the losses but after doing that he can look to you to make good any shortfall.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

macman said:

nowhereboy said:

Thanks. 

In my line of work we’d be in breach of the contract if we didn’t make the customer aware of the cancelation rights or the fact they were entering into a contract. We’d also secure a deposit and issue documents. 

Had I been made aware of any of this stuff prior I’d have known where I stood in advance. 

Surely the fact I didn’t know we had a contract, along with the fact we have not paid a deposit counts for something?

I understand its rubbish to cancel a couple of weeks prior, I get it. That said everyone has to do what they have to do to get by at the moment. 

If I go to the corner shop and ask for a newspaper, then I'm forming a contract at that point, but I don't expect the shopkeeper to present me with a set of terms and conditions to sign before he'll sell me the paper.

That's because "day to day" transactions that take place there and then aren't covered by the information requirements of the legislation  

user1977

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

macman said:

nowhereboy said:

Thanks. 

In my line of work we’d be in breach of the contract if we didn’t make the customer aware of the cancelation rights or the fact they were entering into a contract. We’d also secure a deposit and issue documents. 

Had I been made aware of any of this stuff prior I’d have known where I stood in advance. 

Surely the fact I didn’t know we had a contract, along with the fact we have not paid a deposit counts for something?

I understand its rubbish to cancel a couple of weeks prior, I get it. That said everyone has to do what they have to do to get by at the moment. 

If I go to the corner shop and ask for a newspaper, then I'm forming a contract at that point, but I don't expect the shopkeeper to present me with a set of terms and conditions to sign before he'll sell me the paper.

That's because "day to day" transactions that take place there and then aren't covered by the information requirements of the legislation  

Think you're talking at cross-purposes here - macman was just pointing out the general requirements for the formation of a contract (as the OP doesn't seem to believe there can be any sort of contract), whereas you're talking about the rights to cancel a contract.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

user1977 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

macman said:

nowhereboy said:

Thanks. 

In my line of work we’d be in breach of the contract if we didn’t make the customer aware of the cancelation rights or the fact they were entering into a contract. We’d also secure a deposit and issue documents. 

Had I been made aware of any of this stuff prior I’d have known where I stood in advance. 

Surely the fact I didn’t know we had a contract, along with the fact we have not paid a deposit counts for something?

I understand its rubbish to cancel a couple of weeks prior, I get it. That said everyone has to do what they have to do to get by at the moment. 

If I go to the corner shop and ask for a newspaper, then I'm forming a contract at that point, but I don't expect the shopkeeper to present me with a set of terms and conditions to sign before he'll sell me the paper.

That's because "day to day" transactions that take place there and then aren't covered by the information requirements of the legislation  

Think you're talking at cross-purposes here - macman was just pointing out the general requirements for the formation of a contract (as the OP doesn't seem to believe there can be any sort of contract), whereas you're talking about the rights to cancel a contract.

I got macman's point but the comparison made was apples and oranges  

It's not just the right to cancel, it's also the information requirements which affect whether the consumer is bound to the contract to begin with plus the fairness of terms (although there doesn't appear to be any terms so I assume it falls back to basic contract law). 

Gavin83

nowhereboy said:

Small Job booked with local builder to supply and fit an external garage door at a cost of 1.2k. We paid no deposit, signed no documents or received any cancelation rights etc. Just a verbal agreement over whatsapp to book the work in and to confirm we we’re happy with the price. 

Due to the cost of living situation and an unexpected drop in my wages we have decided to put the work off as it is not essential and the money would be better put in savings. 

We have apologised to the builder and asked if we could cancel the work (due in two weeks time), the builders tone changed quickly and is threatening small claims court to recover his losses and wants to reclaim the cost of the door. Its not made to measure, just a generic standard sized item. I would have had sympathy for his position had he not immediately began being nasty and making threats etc. 

My understanding is that we haven’t signed anything, haven’t been made aware of any cancelation rights and haven’t paid a deposit so the builder is probably just annoyed and trying his luck to recover the alleged losses. 

Would I be right in thinking he is unlikely to get anywhere in the small claims court? 

Thanks 

Honestly, I don't think you come across at all well here. You've completely messed about this builder with no real recognition of that and you seem upset he wants the cost of the door back. Why do you think the builder should be out of pocket for your actions? You mention the cost of living but the builder is also affected by this and is also likely to suffer a drop in wages as more people cancel jobs they apparently can't afford.

Were he to take you to court I don't really fancy your chances and I don't think trying to get out of it on some technicality leaves you to take the moral high ground either.

The right (and probably easiest) route to take it to effectively buy the door off of him. You'll get a reduced bill, plus the door for when you want it fitting and he isn't out of pocket. Were he to refuse this proposition and take you to court his case would be far weaker.

Jumblebumble

Undervalued said:

 He has a legal duty to make reasonable efforts to minimise the losses but after doing that he can look to you to make good any shortfall.

I have asked many times on here but never received an answer. Perhaps you know

 How come an airline or a hotel does not need to do this if I have made a non refundable booking?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Jumblebumble said:

Undervalued said:

 He has a legal duty to make reasonable efforts to minimise the losses but after doing that he can look to you to make good any shortfall.

I have asked many times on here but never received an answer. Perhaps you know

 How come an airline or a hotel does not need to do this if I have made a non refundable booking?

https://www.visitbritain.org/business-advice/cancellations-and-no-shows

It is recommended to include a cancellation clause in your standard booking terms and conditions (see the Bookings section). Common cancellation procedures are to either charge customers a cancellation fee that varies according to the amount of notice given of cancellation or to forfeit any deposit provided at the time of booking. It is important to note that any cancellation terms and conditions need to be fair to the customer. For example, demanding full payment in advance and having a cancellation policy that would see the customer forfeit the entire payment, regardless of when the cancellation was made, would be deemed to be unfair.

Sliding scale and deposits mentioned above should should still pay consideration with regards to a pre-estimation of losses in order to be fair as per the CMA guidance prohibiting the trader from benefiting from a windfall. 

Don't know about airlines.