PCN with County Court N1 form (Excel (ELMS Legal))

Ed2022

Snakes_Belly said:

I asume that the Backcester sign would be the same. This is not the entrance sign but it would take a long time to read this.

I can't find an image of the entrance to see what the signage or lack of it looks like. That is crucial as that is what forms the contract. 


....

Thank you for the image.

That would take 10 minutes and I am sure a dyslexic even longer. Does the driver not leaving the vehicle make any difference?

Snakes_Belly

Ed2022 said:

Snakes_Belly said:

I asume that the Backcester sign would be the same. This is not the entrance sign but it would take a long time to read this.

I can't find an image of the entrance to see what the signage or lack of it looks like. That is crucial as that is what forms the contract. 


....

Thank you for the image.

That would take 10 minutes and I am sure a dyslexic even longer. Does the driver not leaving the vehicle make any difference?

You are allowed 10 minutes to park and pay. There is an ANPR so that would be 10 minutes from entry to exit. The ANPR is not exactly reliable.

Excel took over from the council around March 2021. They have now left and Euro Car Parks have taken over. Google maps are only showing the car park up to November 2020 when it was council run.

I will ask on the FB group if anyone has an image of the signage on entry when Excel were operators.

You may be able to obtain some images by going into this below. Just take some copies of the images but don't go any further. 

https://excel.zatappeal.com/?fbclid=IwAR2K5XsqbpsBI3bLGl2_smo0w4bvvLxSwK9lEOJZ1cCdqXV-wmiLgyu0glk

There have been others who have thought exactly the same as you that it was still council run and there are some comments on the petition. When you look at the reasons for signing you will find that there are other blue badge holders who also have fallen foul so the signage must be unclear. 

https://www.change.org/p/three-spires-shopping-centre-car-park-returned-to-council/c

Snakes_Belly

25/01/2022 - PCN issued for event on the 2/1/2022

Have Excel lost keeper liability? I am not well up on this aspect. Excel assume that the keeper and driver are one and the same.  

Ed2022

Thank you @Snakes_Belly

Interesting re: keepers liability? Will have to read into it.

Cannot access the manage your ticket online, seems to have expired.

But i got these through from Excel - from April 2021.

KeithP

You have shown us six photographs all allegedly taken on 1st April 2021 and with the following timestamps:
11:57am, 12:05pm, 12:20pm, 12:20pm, 12:30pm and 12:44pm. 

Of those that mention any particular car park, three of them mention Backcester Lane and for some reason one of them  - at 11:57am - was apparently taken at another car park - Gresley Row.

I also wonder why they have shown pictures of sign at both Backcester Lane Long Stay car park - 12:44pm - and Backcester Lane Short Stay car park - 12:30pm.

So the photographer appears to have visited three car parks in the space of forty-three minutes.
Perfectly possible I suppose, but why present photographs from three car parks?

Ed2022

@KeithP
The photographs are from April 2021 based on the time stamp on the bottom right.

KeithP

Ed2022 said:

@KeithP
The photographs are from April 2021 based on the time stamp on the bottom right.

Yes, I saw that but hadn't realised that they were taken nine months before the alleged parking event.

What is the relevance of any of those photographs?

Snakes_Belly

KeithP said:

Ed2022 said:

@KeithP
The photographs are from April 2021 based on the time stamp on the bottom right.

Yes, I saw that but hadn't realised that they were taken nine months before the alleged parking event.

What is the relevance of any of those photographs?

I think that these must be Excel's photographs. Gresley Row is a sister car park to Backcester Lane and was also managed by the council before Excel. Excel were kicked off both. They are virtually next to each other.

There is no image of the approach to the car park from what the driver would see. I have asked on the FB forum and I will see what turns up. The images are only used at the WS stage but are useful to see before completing the defence.

Excel will assume that the keeper and driver are one and the same. I am also unsure how long the driver was in the car park for.  

I would defend this claim on the basis that the car park had been previously managed by the council and as such Blue Badge holders were not subject to a parking tariff. The signage did not give the appearance that the car park had changed to being operated by a private parking company. The sign that indicates that the terms have changed is very small and unreadable from a car.

It was not just the OP that had fallen foul of this car park but a number of other blue badge holders had also received PCN's for the same alleged transgression. Many of these BB holders have been chased aggressively by this ex-clamping company. Some have received multiple PCN's.

The demographic appeared to be mothers with young children in a hurry, or older, pensionable age drivers.

Several local MP's including the incumbant Lichfield MP Michael Fabricant and the Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) Amanda Milling who is MP for Cannock Chase have become involved in trying to help constituents who have received unfair PCN's. 

As a result of Excel's aggressive behaviour and their intransigence in dealing with appeals for unfair PCN's their services have now been dispensed with and a new operator has taken over.  

The actions of this aggressive ex clamping operator has had a detrimental effect on the city. Other car parks have been affected as they have taken up the slack from motorists who will no longer use the two Excel car parks. Some motorists are now avoiding the town. (WS).

The tariff on this day was £1.00 for the duration of the day. Had the driver been aware that the operation of the car park was now in the hands of a private parking operator and that charges for blue badge holders would apply they would have certainly paid the £1.00 parking tariff.

This is generally the way that I would defend the claim but I am not legally trained. I have defended a claim against this company myself and am familar with their MO.

I am not up to speed with the POFA and I defended the claim against myself as driver and keeper.

All the points mentioned above can be substantiated in the WS.

What is known.

That the driver did not leave the car so would not have read the terms and conditions. 

That the defendant is defending as the keeper.

What is not known

How long that the car was parked?

Was the driver picking up or dropping off a disabled person or was the driver disabled?

Johnersh

Let excels evidence be.  The signage from a year before is not proof it was still in place and points to the unreliability of their evidence.

The signs which refer to a change in terms (presumably from council) are far too small for a point of entry.

Given that standard blue badge terms are for free parking, even their signage for that is inadequate. 

Snakes_Belly

Johnersh said:

Let excels evidence be.  The signage from a year before is not proof it was still in place and points to the unreliability of their evidence.

The signs which refer to a change in terms (presumably from council) are far too small for a point of entry.

Given that standard blue badge terms are for free parking, even their signage for that is inadequate. 

That's another good defence point as their images are out of date.

Johnersh is legally trained. 

I have not seen any images of signage at the point of entry. The large terms and conditions board faces the car park and not the road.