Electric Ring Final Circuit downrating concern

Section62

anselld said:

However, 2 x 17A ( for a ring) still has margin on a 32A breaker.

Depends on what other derating they have applied, possibly other factors as well.

anselld said:

And how do the Council know the cables run in the loft if they have not inspected.  It is not normal for power cables to run in a loft, usually under or between floors.  Perhaps more likely in a bungalow.

OP lives in a bungalow.

Other work, such as increasing loft insulation, may be the trigger for this.  It doesn't have to have been a formal electrical inspection.

RAS

Val45 said:

It contains two posts - one from the office to someone else, “Please find attached EICR and email from the tenants daughter in law for the following remedial.” 

And a reply back to the office, “We have a similar report carried out by one of our operatives in July 2020 – the socket circuits still need downrating due them being wired in 2.5mm cable through a loft containing insulation the repair wasn’t carried out there and then as we don’t stock. The repair still needs to be carried out the tenant isn’t getting charged for this either, the lad that attends will need 3 20A British General MCB’s” 

This reply back boggles my mind. 

My daughter in law forwarded the Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate to the Office by email, not an EICR. There has never been an Electrical Installation Condition Report done on this property during my tenancy. How is it possible that they can claim such? 

 So tell the Office

a. We have never had an EICR done at this address
b. We know nothing about any visit by an operative in July 2020

Ask the Office to provide

1. a copy of the EICR
2. A copy of the July 2020 report.

It's possible they've been attached to the wrong property?

Val45

To Section62

Have you had any other work done on the bungalow recently, such as the loft insulation being increased? 

No 

Has anyone from the council looked in the loft to see where the cables are? 

No

Did your electrician leave any paperwork referring to the cables being under (or over) the loft insulation? 

No. I can’t find any in the file. The only mention of cables is in Part 5 of comments on the existing installation - “cables in loft for lighting not adequately supported throughout their length.” If I am remembering correctly from the last time I was in the loft, there is a thick black pipe containing wires coming out of the wall above the kitchen and connected along the boards on the underderside of the roof about half way up and going outside. There are grey wires pinned to the surrounding wood beams at about my shoulder height (5ft tall) There was also what looked like a biggish cream closed in choc box behind the partition where the light switch is. There are two lights in the loft, one at either side. I’m sorry I can’t explain things in electric terms but I have no knowledge there. I will ask my daughter in law if she will go up in the loft and take some photos for me when she comes to take my dog out later today. 

Most of all, don't worry too much. There's unlikely to be an immediate safety issue - the issue has more to do with long-term damage to cables being run at higher temperatures. 

Thank you.

To RAS - Thank you so much for this

So tell the Office

a. We have never had an EICR done at this address
b. We know nothing about any visit by an operative in July 2020

Ask the Office to provide

1. a copy of the EICR
2. A copy of the July 2020 report.

It's possible they've been attached to the wrong property?

I will print this off to follow, much appreciated.

 

Val45

Hello to those who responded to my post, I received a copy of the Domestic Electrical Installation Condition Report from the ‘Office’ yesterday and thought you might be interested in an update. 

The report is classed as Periodic Inspection and testing and was apparently carried out on 27th May 2020. 

PART 3.

Ref 101 for kitchen and house sockets, recommended downdrating of MCB...

Estimated age of electrical installation is 15 years.

Evidence of additions or alterations (ticked)

Overall assessment of installation is Unsatisfactory* 

PART 4.

Person responsible CERTIFY as XXX XXX Date 31st July 2020

Reviewed by Qualified Supervisor as XXX XXX Date 4th August 2020 

PART 5.

Periodic inspection recommended not more than 2 years 

PART 6. - The following observations & recommendations for action are made: 

1. 101 for socket circuits - Code C2 (‘Potentially Dangerous’ Urgent remedial actions required)

2. Some painted accessories Code C3 ‘Improvement recommended’

3. Some DIY fittings - Location House

4. Recommend rewire of old colours due to age of installation (observation) 

Urgent remedial action required for item 1

Improvement recommended for item 2 

PART 7.

Full Installation BUNGALOW

No inspection in walls, floor or loft.

Extent of sampling (inspection only) 100% visual and 10% accessories accessories.

 

How on earth can this be happening when there are so many discrepancies in his statement?! 

On the 15th October 2019 I forwarded (emailed) Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate dated 21st August 2019 to the XXX Council Housing Office. 

On the 31st July 2020 XXX claims to have carried out a 100% visual check on the Installation Condition Report which I have no record of or recollection to. 

XXX (He) states that: 

· The visual estimated age of the electrical installation is 15 years old.

· That there is evidence of additions and alterations to the installation.

· XXX (His) overall assessment of the installation is Unsatisfactory. 

However: 

· The DEIC dated 21st August 2019 confirms that the new installation was completed only 9 months prior to his claimed visit.

· The new consumer unit clearly displays the date of the last inspection as 21st August 2019 and recommends the date of next inspection as 21st August 2024, which is suck on the front.

· There is also a CAUTION displayed on the new consumer unit stating “This installation has wiring colours to two versions of BS 7671” 

I can’t believe that XXX (his) report was sanctioned by XXX (Qualified Supervisor) when they not only had my dated DEIC but ongoing photos' of the work in progress, to confirm that their specifications were being followed. 

It’s hard to accept that someone could make such a mendacious statement. I’m feeling so vexed at the moment I can’t think straight. Please can someone suggest what I need to do now?

 

anselld

From the Council's view they have an EICR which has a C2 due to reference method 101 cables.  They can only make that go away by implementing the recommendation.
There are indeed some discrepancies ...
   (1) how do they have an EICR at all if you have not given access to the premises
   (2) how do they know the cables are 101 if they have not inspected the loft
 You could put these questions to them and ask for another full EICR to confirm there is a real problem rather than an assumed one.  However you may simply be delaying the inevitable... if they inspect again and the cables are indeed '101' then they will still insist on the derating, their only other option being a rewire.
The system age is a red herring, they probably just note that based on the oldest elements, ie the wiring.  (Any white wiring visible will date before 2005).  Don't read much into the supervisor signature either, it is just a standard 'rubber stamping' box which will not involve any technical input.

Section62

Val45 said:

It’s hard to accept that someone could make such a mendacious statement. I’m feeling so vexed at the moment I can’t think straight. Please can someone suggest what I need to do now?

If it were me I would just let them get on with swapping the MCBs, rather than go through the stress and hassle of arguing with them.

Ultimately the property belongs to them and they have a legal duty to make sure it is safe. Post-Grenfell councils are more acutely aware of the need to maintain their properties from the safety perspective, so it is unlikely they will just forget about this now there is a record of something being wrong.

If they come to your property to do a full EICR (as a way of resolving the discrepancies) the odds are they will find some 101 cabling in the loft (or any one or more of 100, 101, 102 or 103), which will 'prove' that they need to derate the circuits.

From a practical point of view, it is unlikely that having 20A vs 32A MCBs will make much difference.  It is possible you'll be able to overload the circuit and make a MCB trip, but you could prevent that by being careful which appliances you use at the same time, or get on to the council about upgrading that circuit so it does what a reasonable occupant would expect.

Tactically you would get more sympathy from councillors or the ombudsman if you are asking the council in the future to upgrade the circuit due to persistent tripping problems than you would be if you are insisting the council shouldn't be doing work 'required' for 'safety' now.

If they install 20A MCBs and they don't trip then both you and the council will be happy from a practical point of view.  The only outstanding issue would be the process, and whether they have done what they say they have and/or need to do what they want to do. Only you will know whether the time expended and stress is worth it to get clarification on the process issues.