company lease car, NTK arrived, NO PCN PROVIDED

24sb25

Hi All,
I've had a good read through the newbie thread and i'm going to kick myself if i've missed it but . . . I don't believe one of my points is noted

relating to Workflow Dynamics (BPA registered).
I have a company car, the NTK letter was sent on 22/7 to the business i work for.
No PCN letter has come through to me. (that's not to say our business hasn't lost it or if it went to Lexlease and they binned it).
The PCN is stated as 20/6. 
The NTK only states date and time of parking charge (23:18), not duration, no "in and out time" (ANPR car park), no photograph. 
The NTK states £100 is due. Having driven to the car park, the signage has the £100 charge in very small writing (had to get really close to read it) however also states that if paid in 14 days reduced to £60. 
The NTK states that if i don't pay within 21 days, they have hte right under POFA schedule 4 to recover the amount due.
The NTK includes details to appel within 21 days, but with a PO box postal address only, no email. 
IT also states i have the right to appeal further through PoPLA and some details.
Having looked into detail of said car park - the poles for the ANPR and the signage do not have planning permission, but i'm not sure if this is relevant. 
The car park has 3 hours free. No pay stations, no ways to pay on the phone. online only. 

In the first instance i am contacting the units and the landlord to make them aware of the bottom item too and see if they will cancel. I'm not expecting much to come of that.

I'd appreciate some guidance as to how to proceed;

1. I can write out as per Edna's items on the newbie thread and go straight to the Workflow Dynamics, noting the signage etc. then going up to PoPLA if i have a case.
2. Is the fact that I haven't been issued with a postal PCN a point to appeal? Can they prove that it was ever received given there's no digital trail? Proof of postage is not proof of receipt for instance.
3. Is the fact that the NTK does not have any proof of anything, no timing stamps, no photos etc make this PCN void, or would this detail have been on the "phantom" PCN?

Or, given the time that's lapsed between them going to lex and back to my company just all fubar and it'll be far too difficult to now fight this.

Thanks
Sam 

KeithP

Hello and welcome.

As you have already seen Edna Basher's template appeals in the NEWBIES thread, you will know how important it is to not give away the driver's identity.

This is because if they haven't supplied you with copies of the documentation mentioned in paragraphs 13 and 14 of PoFA - and they never do supply that documentation - then any driver's liability simply cannot be transferred to the keeper.

Coupon-mad

To get your own postal Notice, the recipient of the NTK has to use the tear off slip or go online to transfer liability to you as the hirer/lessee and provide your address.

Has your company done that?

24sb25

Thanks both. 

There seems to be a lot in paragraph 13 and 14, but if hte NTK is one sheet then would appear to not include anything of that description . .

The NTK is address to the business, not to me, and our HR team have just scanned it and emailed it to me. I immediately went back and instructed them not to respond in any manner. 

the only tear off bit on the letter is the slip to cinlude the details when paying by cheque it seems. 

I won't be disclosing the drivers identity and can include something to the effect of "I confirm that ABC is the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA") and I write to dispute this PCN, however, there will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn."

Should

Coupon-mad

The first NTK is not a NTH so is not required to enclose any documents.

And you can only respond to the company's NTK if they let you. Do you have permission to reply 'as them'?

The NTK is address to the business, not to me, and our HR team have just scanned it and emailed it to me. I immediately went back and instructed them not to respond in any manner. 

That was wrong. I already advised how a company should handle it (even with no tear off slip, I covered that too).  They need to transfer liability to you so they are no longer involved. It is very simple and it astonishes me that fleet managers don't know this.

They can't just hand the NTK to you (and ignore the parking firm) unless they are happy that YOU reply 'as the company' (if you are an employee I suspect that's unlikely).

24sb25

Ok which option would be better for the dispute process seeing as my business haven't done that to my knowledge and the NTK states the business name still

Should i ask for the permission to reply as them or ask them to transfer liability to me? 

thanks for your helps so far. 

Coupon-mad

As I said, they (your company) need to wise up and stop retaining liability for the company by negligently just passing PCNs to employees.  Don't they realise they (the company) remains the liable party and can be sued later?

This is simple.  I can't understand why your company don't have a policy on this.  Maybe you can help them with it by your case example.

The NTK even tells them how to transfer liability, which protects the company, absolves them of all future liability and fairly gives the lessee/hirer the right to receive a NTH and appeal.  Could have been done online in 5 minutes flat so I've no idea why they aren't doing this.

24sb25

Sorry I have just re read the letter o find that section on the transfer of liability, i've dropped a bollock, this says Notice to Hirer at the top! (it was you NTK/NTH bit that has made that stand out. 

Does this change matters?

thanks

Coupon-mad

Not in the slightest.

24sb25

This is the initial section of the letter. There isn't a tear off or any mention of online transfer of liability in the NTH.

Coupon-mad

What's the date of that notice?

It is indeed a NTH because your company has been named by the lease firm whose name must be on the logbook.