Grade II Building - Survey Issues

McTaggus

Hi All,

I would really like to seek your advice. We are in the process of buying a Grade II listed building. We had a Level 3 survey done given the age of the building. During the telephone debriefing, our surveyor highlighted that some damp has been caused by incorrect render being used (hard render, not lime) and given us a cost to rectify the issue (£10K). We have asked the vendor to split the cost 50:50 so that the price is down graded £5K, which I thought would be a fair offer to make.

However, we have just received the full report and it is evident from there that the roof was replaced without listed building consent, albeit using vernacular materials. I’m seeing conflicting advice online, ranging from roof repairs not needing listed building consent through to liability for criminal offences and the cost of removing and restoring the original roof condition.

can anyone shed any light here? Would a listed building indemnity policy give us protection in the event listed building consent should have been requested? Or should we more seriously be considering walking away?

For more context, our mortgage provider hasn’t requested indemnity insurance, nor have they put a retention on for the correction of the damp issue even though they have deemed it essential repair.

In short, how worried or not should we be about the roof situation?

Thank you so much in advance!
McTaggus

youth_leader

I have just sold my listed building and my buyer's surveyor also gave that £10K quote for the replastering in lime/mortar, must be a surveyor go to figure!  My local plasterer wouldn't have charged that amount, it did annoy me.

You might like to have a look at this site, they offer Listed Building insurance, you could ring to ask about the indemnity.

Listed Heritage Magazine - Listed Property (lpoc.co.uk)

j2009

I would get that 10k figure doubled checked. You may need approval to change the render (even if you're fixing a bad repair). I believe the cost/fees for applying to do works on Grade II can be 2-3k. I'm happy to be corrected by people who live in grade II. buildings but just check. I say that because the 10k may or may not include fees but Lime render isn't cheap, neither is the skilled labour for using it and then you have to buy special breathable paint (and you may need to paint more of the building to make it not stand out). Surveyors may not always have their finger on the pulse of what things cost so you need to get a proper quote in my opinion.

As regards the roof, have you looked at the listing for the building? Is the roof mentioned and what does it say? Again I am no expert but I imagine some minor repairs don't require approval (if done sympathetically with matching materials) because they don't want to delay making the building water tight and risking more damage being done to it.

However, repairing a roof is quite different to replacing a roof. I would be very nervous about buying if the roof was replaced without consent and I am 99% sure you can't just replace it. 

As regards an indemnity policy you'd be best to ask your solicitor but it should afford you some protection. However, personally I wouldn't buy a listed building that I thought hadn't had the right consents because I would always be wondering when the letter will drop through the door to say the listing people have been informed.

McTaggus

Thanks both, really helpful helpful responses.

j2009 hits my concern right on the head as has the last para in particular, and is the query we have raised; was it repair or was it replacement? The vendor told our surveyor they had the roof “redone” when they moved in, and LBC wasn’t gained in the process. We have asked for advice from the solicitor and were planning on asking the consent officer, but then understood that might invalidate some liability policies (which I don’t understand!)

Unfortunately, our vendor seems completely clueless; after 2 months she still can’t even confirm or deny whether the septic tank is 2015 compliant! I love the house, but the mounting question marks are starting to worry me a lot. I don’t want to be saddled with repair costs, a reinstatement cost, and a new septic tank….! Is this information shortfall normal in Grade II properties or is our vendor unusually unhelpful/ lacking in knowledge?!

As someone who has files of meticulous paperwork and history on our current home, it’s highly frustrating and driving me slightly mad. That plus the fact she seems to take 3 weeks to provide a vague noncommittal answer to a very straightforward question.

Not sure I should have done, but called the agent today and asked to view another property as an emergency plan B in case queries aren’t satisfactorily resolved. Our chain is complete, waiting on us, and I hate being at the whims of a seller that seems to be living on another planet.

Sorry / rant over! Just trying to decide if it’s worth pursuing as it’s our perfect place, or whether to cut losses and put head over heart and run!

McTaggus

To add, yes, the roof is mentioned in the listing

Section62

j2009 said:

I would get that 10k figure doubled checked. You may need approval to change the render (even if you're fixing a bad repair). I believe the cost/fees for applying to do works on Grade II can be 2-3k.

LBC is usually free.  There may be costs involved with drawing up plans to include in the application, but very often the type of work can simply be described in words, and so long as they are clear any drawings that are required don't have to be done by a professional.

The thing to be careful about is that listing is about preserving the 'story' of the building as it was at the point of listing.  This means that things which are 'out of keeping' with the building may be regarded as important features - the mistake many people make is thinking listing is about 'restoring' a building back to how it was when first built. It isn't.

j2009 said:

Again I am no expert but I imagine some minor repairs don't require approval (if done sympathetically with matching materials) because they don't want to delay making the building water tight and risking more damage being done to it.

The easiest thing is to phone or email the CO and just ask them if it is Ok.  People's definition of 'minor' varies so much.

j2009 said:

However, repairing a roof is quite different to replacing a roof. I would be very nervous about buying if the roof was replaced without consent and I am 99% sure you can't just replace it.

I would say 100%.

I wouldn't buy unless the CO was told about the roof replacement and had given their Ok.

user1977

McTaggus said:

We have asked for advice from the solicitor and were planning on asking the consent officer, but then understood that might invalidate some liability policies (which I don’t understand!)

The general principle about indemnity policies is that the insurers only want to cover situations where something happened a while ago and the dust appears to have settled - they don't want you stirring up trouble by pointing out e.g. to the planners in this case, that they might want to do the very thing they're insuring you against.

canaldumidi

McTaggus said:

.....

Unfortunately, our vendor seems completely clueless; after 2 months she still can’t even confirm or deny whether the septic tank is 2015 compliant!...

Many users of STs, especially after long term use, have little idea of the Regs or whether their tank is compliant. For 5, 10, 20 years they's used them, emptied them (occasionally) and ignored them!

What did your home buyer drainage survey reveal?

https://www.ukdpsolutions.co.uk/septic-tanks/surveys/home-buyer-drainage-survey

(other contractors are available...)

FreeBear

j2009 said: but Lime render isn't cheap, neither is the skilled labour for using it and then you have to buy special breathable paint (and you may need to paint more of the building to make it not stand out).

Lime render is very reasonably priced compared to some of the silicone renders available. Anglia Lime can do 25Kg bags for £12.12 or 1 tonne bags for £418.33 (inc VAT). Depending on total area and thickness, the larger bags may be suitable.

As for a suitable paint, that is even cheaper - Grab a tub of lime putty (~£13), mix with water to a consistency of thick cream, and add some pigments. Bung in a bit of linseed oil if required for extra waterproofing. No need to pay through the nose for Farrow & Ball.

Finding someone with the skill and experience is the difficult part. I would agree that this is where the the real cost mounts up. If there is any fancy pargeting involved, that is going to bump the cost up even further.

youth_leader

If the roof is mentioned, and the conservation officer is made aware, you could be asked to reinstate it to its previous glory. 

I had 'queen' standard slates on mine, the buyer has stated he is going to 're-use' as many as possible.  Prices are sky high for quality slate. 

McTaggus

Thank you all. Apologies, struggling to quote specific responses on my mobile.

Private drainage searches are underway, pending results - hopefully back this week. They have only been in the property 6 years though, so would have thought they would have had to go through checks previously (perhaps I’m being naive here).

On the render, this is external render and the primary issue is penetrating damp that has caused decay to the timber frame that can’t dry out because of the hard render used. Therefore it’s not just the render replacement, it’s the specialist timber repairs also likely to be required to fix the damage. If it was just render, I would be less worried, but preventing penetrating damp and fixing the decay to timbers is key and has been flagged as essential repair by both our lender and our surveyor, hence the estimated cost.

The roof repairs are completely sympathetic; I’ve checked the last sale photos vs the current and you couldn’t tell the difference. As I say, vernacular material has been used and think they have re-used old tiles. I’ll investigate further and see to what extent it was repair vs replacement. If it was a full replacement, I’m not sure I’m up for the reinstatement costs, but will see where we net out.

Thanks for the excellent advice all!