What extra support measures or regulations do you expect the government to bring in this winter?

Mstty

(Removed by Forum Team)

If you are going to daily mail the figures then that won't help anyone.

Help has already been given, with some means tested people/families and pensioners getting well over £1000, some lots more.

This money has to come from somewhere so what do you want less of?

NHS/Defence/Education/Social Care

What means little to you if course won't mean the same to someone else.

MattMattMattUK

wittynamegoeshere said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I will make sure I own quite a bit, and I will be happy. Don't complain that others have more than you, strive to better yourself.

Now that was hilarious.  And extremely revealing, probably more than you realise.

It is not revealing in any way.

wittynamegoeshere said:

Firstly, that I'm complaining so must be poor or some kind of failure. I'm not either.

I do not know if you are poor or a failure, either way is not evident from your posts, nor would be be verifiable either way.

wittynamegoeshere said:
Secondly, the revealing part, that someone who is concerned about a situation must be one who is affected.  

The issue is with the "solutions" you are proposing, not who they are intended to help.

wittynamegoeshere said:
You seriously believe that everyone has the "I'm alright Jack" attitude that seems to prevail on this forum, and that nobody else cares about others suffering?

There are a few on here who have an "I'm alright Jack" attitude, there are another group who expect the government to provide for them and insulate them from life even though they can afford to stand on their own feet. Most of us are in the middle. I accept pragmatically that everything has consequences and there are no simple answers, so actions have to be evaluated carefully and balanced judgements made before something is done. Your ideas would hugely damage the economy and all but wipe out inward investment, that is a huge negative consequence that would make the whole nation worse off.

wittynamegoeshere said:
That is very revealing and also quite sad.

It is not "revealing" in any way, as much as you think you have a crystal ball. I have regularly said on here (and do in real life) that I and indeed nearly everyone should be paying more tax so that the government has a decent enough revenue stream to be able to properly fund social provisions. I would like the UK to be much more like the Scandinavian model than the American model it seems to be pushing for. However you seem to think that because I do not support your plan to destroy inward investment I don't care about other people and that is "revealing".

wittynamegoeshere said:

But, back on topic from the needless attempt at lording it over the plebs...

I guess when all else fails, troll.

wittynamegoeshere said:

I'm not suggesting that the generating companies would make a loss.  They'd make a profit, supplying the government supplier.  But a reasonable profit, not charging 3x last year's profitable price.

The generating companies are not making three times last years profit as they are having to buy fuel on the international markets at prices vastly higher than in previous years, most have significantly reduced margins, many made losses at points due to having sold supply but not hedged gas themselves (a position I have no sympathy for, but do acknowledge the reality of the situation).

wittynamegoeshere said:

Obviously some suppliers would need to import, so a mix of prices would need to be paid.

A good proportion import for electricity generation, we have even imported coal for generation. That fuel is bought on the open international markets so prices are set there, not by some government mandate. If the government says that energy cannot be sold above a certain level then that also has an impact on what it can be bought for, if that price is below the price on the open market no one will sell us the fuel, or transfer energy over the interconnectors, so the lights will go out.

wittynamegoeshere said:

I'm not an energy consultant.  My point is not that I have the answers, but that nobody seems to be asking the fundamental questions about whether we should carry on as we are and looking at possible alternatives, given that the current system is not adding any value and competition has almost entirely stopped.

The current system is not ideal, but your proposals will only make it worse both in the short and long term. There are alternatives, but none of them are quick fixes, they require investment over decades building capacity within the UK, a large scale investment and building program for nuclear, as well as further investment in renewables.

wittynamegoeshere said:

Another possible approach would be for the govt to set up a subsidised supplier and letting customers choose to switch to it.  That way nobody forces the old guard to go bust, they just run out of customers.

It could be, but in the good time the supplier's margin is around 3%, at the moment it is less and at various points in the last year the big suppliers have been forced to subsidise supply costs. The issue is not the suppliers, or even the generators, it is that successive governments for the last fifty years have not invested in energy generation and/or provided an adequate environment to support inward investment in energy generation. The UK was a world leader in nuclear power, we stopped building nuclear power plants and increased fossil fuel usage, we sold our fossil fuels cheaply on the open market to allow us to lower taxes, then lowered taxes even further because people in the UK seem to not like contributing to the society that they live in. 

wakeupalarm

Sunak pledging to provide similar help with energy bills to his last package of measures, amounting to £400 a household and £650 for the most vulnerable – a £15bn overall package.

Truss plans would give high earners such as the prime minister a tax cut of £110, while those on the “national living wage” would only receive about £50 and pensioners nothing.

As Truss is expected to win, will pensioners be happy to wait still be alive until April's state pension increase?

Other potential measures include the 40% tax rate to be scrapped.  Energy companies to be allowed to offer mortgages.  Foreign billionaires to be encouraged with tax breaks and House of Lords honours other incentives to invest in the UK's booming food banks and DIY dentistry markets.

luvchocolate

Remember us pensioers will recieve £500 in November/December winter fuel allowance....a big help to most 

RogerBareford

wittynamegoeshere said:

RogerBareford said:

It's common sense to budget, save money and build up emergency funds but many people choose not to do it.

Now they will have to feel the reprecussions of years and years of money mismangement. The only good thing that might come of this is that people learn to manage their money better but i don't think that will happen and when the good times come again they will go back into "spend spend spend" mode.

I do understand your sentiment.  It irks me massively when I hear people on TV saying they've got no money while sitting in front of a massive telly in a room containing more stuff than our entire house.

But... while there's a huge need for financial responsibility and education, do you think this is the only way for people to learn?  Perhaps we could get through this winter with a quick fix then deal with the issues after?

Would you be happy to kick the bodies out of the way while taking your savings to the bank?

Probably the likely outcome will be mass non-payment.  This may force the government's hand.

Whatever the answer, I really hope they're not going to ignore the squeezed middle again, as they keep doing.  There's an hourglass of wealth starting to take shape, those at the top and bottom get all the cash while those in the middle just pay for it all.

Yes i think the only way for some people to learn to budget who don't actively want too is by being forced into it with increasing prices as they currently are. I know people who live paycheck to paycheck and it's simply because they spend every penny they have just because it's there. When they have less money they buy less and when they have more they buy more, maybe the financial "shock" of how expensive things are getting now will make them think twice about not putting aside any savings when they have a bit spare.

Putting extra support in place for people who can't budget is akin to someone in debt having their parents pay it all off... they are just gonna go right back into debt as they won't have learnt anything.

I really don't think people are going to die because of high energy bills. I think most people are sensible enough to do some emergency "budeting" and cut back on non essentials as the energy bills rise.

Max68

"This is only a national disaster due toso many people in this country living paycheck to paycheck and unable to budget properly. The fact is that energy is going up in price due to factors outside the control of our government and people need to adjust accordingly."

I think there are also millions of people who live pay check to pay check and DO budget properly.  For sure there are many who may regret the £2000 2022 holiday or £1000 season ticket to the football come October but there are millions who are just about managing without a flash car or a sky package!   

This preference Truss has to tax cuts doesn't help those on low wages who don't pay tax or pensioners.  And none of this help has assisted those who self fund in care homes.  Their bills went up sharply back in April and will jump massively again in October so where many of us may have to find £4000 a year to pay for energy these poor folks will end up paying 4-5000 or above per month just for care.

The wastage during Covid makes this more ghastly to swallow.  The millions lost to fraud during furlough or the PPE cost shambles and it's Joe Public who suffer.

I was talking to someone earlier who runs an Air Con and Heat Pump company and he freely admitted come 2025 most people will just not be able to afford the up front cost of a heat pump.  It's not the answer to everyone's problems.  The whole thing is a mess.

@Roger "I really don't think people are going to die because of high energy bills."

As said earlier I have already lost an associate due to suicide because of financial pressures and the immense worry of October.  Sadly I worry he won't be the only one.  If it's a cold winter and people can't put the heating on or buy food because they can't afford it, of course there will be deaths.  There are deaths in a normal year due to cold with many older folks suffering.  Combine a cold winter and high bills you are going to have deaths, it's obvious. 

RogerBareford

Max68 said:

"This is only a national disaster due toso many people in this country living paycheck to paycheck and unable to budget properly. The fact is that energy is going up in price due to factors outside the control of our government and people need to adjust accordingly."

I think there are also millions of people who live pay check to pay check and DO budget properly.  For sure there are many who may regret the £2000 2022 holiday or £1000 season ticket to the football come October but there are millions who are just about managing without a flash car or a sky package!   

I honestly don't think that is the case. It would be a very rare situation for someone to have exactly the right amount of money they need to live each month and not a little bit more to save (or a little bit less so are going deeper and deeper into debt). Just look at the Debt Free Wannabee par of the forum where like i said 90%+ of people who do an SOA find spare money each month to pay down their debts.

There are so many things people can do to save money it would be a very rare situation for someone to only have exactly what they need to live and are unable to make any lifestyle changes at all.

This preference Truss has to tax cuts doesn't help those on low wages who don't pay tax or pensioners.  And none of this help has assisted those who self fund in care homes.  Their bills went up sharply back in April and will jump massively again in October so where many of us may have to find £4000 a year to pay for energy these poor folks will end up paying 4-5000 or above per month just for care.

The wastage during Covid makes this more ghastly to swallow.  The millions lost to fraud during furlough or the PPE cost shambles and it's Joe Public who suffer.

I was talking to someone earlier who runs an Air Con and Heat Pump company and he freely admitted come 2025 most people will just not be able to afford the up front cost of a heat pump.  It's not the answer to everyone's problems.  The whole thing is a mess.

So some random guy who runs an Air Con and Heat Pump company somehow also has data that shows people in 2025 will not be able to afford the up front cost? Where did he get this data from? What calulations did he make to come to this conclusion?

To me it sounds like he has no idea what he is talking about so not sure why you would even mention his comments?

@Roger "I really don't think people are going to die because of high energy bills."

As said earlier I have already lost an associate due to suicide because of financial pressures and the immense worry of October.  Sadly I worry he won't be the only one.  If it's a cold winter and people can't put the heating on or buy food because they can't afford it, of course there will be deaths.  There are deaths in a normal year due to cold with many older folks suffering.  Combine a cold winter and high bills you are going to have deaths, it's obvious. 

To be blunt you lost an associate because they had mental health issues. Someone who isn't ill wouldn't just kill themselves because of a worry about energy bill rises. It's unfortunte that they didn't get help before it was too late but people with those kinds of issues could have been triggered by any number of possible negative events.

I just find it so ridiculous that people who are likely to die don't put the heating on because they "can't afford it". With the winter fuel payment i just can't see why people are refusing to heat their homes when they are vulnerable.

Max68

Roger - With all due respect if bills are potentially going to hit £300 per month or so for some this winter then the Governments £400 and a £200 odd winter fuel payment may help to an extent but not by much.  £600 could be two months bills!!   We also forget the vulnerable that are on high usage with such needs as medical equipment that may need to be on 24 hours a day for instance.

Re my associate, yes he must have had mental health issues but mental health issues as you say can be brought on by any set of circumstances - anything from grief to stress.  You don't have to start off with mental health issues and if millions are struggling to pay their bills then the stress of that could mean those mental health issues could rise.

Finally, the heat pump guy!  I can't afford a heat pump.  I got a quote a few months ago.  My property isn't suitable for a ground source pump and to install and benefit from an air source pump I would need quite a lot of work done including piping, new radiators and possibly under floor heating. I was quoted upwards of £18,000.  I can't afford a holiday let alone £18,000 and I am sure millions more are in the same boat.  Plus, I do have emergency funds that I budgeted.  Every little bit of extra plus CT rebate and the £400 will push my energy balance to around +£1000, which helps but I certainly don't have £18,000 of extra for that heat pump!

Anyway, it's all about opinions and discussion.  Boring old world if we all agreed! 

savers_united

Whilst I agree with alot of the sentiment on here regarding those who do not budget and spend spend spend. 

What is hard to accept is the increases we are witnessing, a 20% increase would be a shock and would have been met with media outrage, we are talking here an increase of close to 400% by January, so in less than 24 months bills have increased to a level not even seasoned energy analysts could ever have predicted in their modelling 2 years ago.

There are not many who will not feel this impact, regardless of their energy use or budgeting, no one has prepared for an energy bill to go up 400%, that is why this winter support is needed before the fallout from this gets out of control and spiral into other problems in society. Its the scale of the rise that needs addressing in the immediate, and then let people understand that this is the way energy prices are likely to be in the future and govt cannot keep supporting, then we can have the grown up conversations regarding usage, storage, energy mix, green levies, housing stock & it's efficency etc etc so that we are able to better deal with energy rises in future. 

Mstty

So some cold hard numbers.

£31,400 is the average family household take home pay after regular tax deductions.

Fuel poverty is judged to be at 10% of take home pay.

If the news about £4200 price cap in Jan and £4400 in April come to fruition that's 14% of take home pay on the average energy use 12000kwh gas 2900kwh electricity.

That's is a crippling amount given rises in interest rates, car fuel and food shopping to name a few.