Economy 7, Night Store Heaters and the Price Cap

QrizB

I'm still not clear. Humour me for a moment, if you will.

Ragged1953 said:

I shan't publish the company details on a public forum, suffice to say it isn't the one named in your message. I assume the Economy 7 tariff is unique to each company. I selected the one with the lowest night tariff at the time, changing from one now in administration..

So you are aware that E7 rates vary between suppliers. You switched based on the rates at that time. Have you compared the current market and considered switching again?

3.4kw heater. 27p per kWh. 7 hours/night. ( Estimated economy 7 rate from October)

If 27p/kWh is your current rate plus 35%, your current night rate is 20p/kWh? That's definitely not the cheapest current tariff (you'll have seen that EDF are cheaper, and I think there are cheaper options still).
3.4kW input is quite a beefy storage heater. Are all four of your heaters that size? Can we have makes and models please?

Charging at full input for all 7 hours should only be ne3cessary during the coldest parts of the winter. Do you really run your heaters at max input all the time?

Times 4 heaters, per day.

Times 30 for a month.

96kWh a day, almost 3000kWh of heating in a month, is a much higher heating demand than the average home. Is your particularly large, especially draughty, poorly insulated or otherwise inefficient?

Ragged1953

So many questions.
A detached, isolated cottage.
The max costings were obviously for the extreme weather this elevated position, between a north and south coast ( a peninsula therefore) enjoys more frequently than sheltered inland and urban sites.
I see little point in estimating the average or minimum use, this leaving myself Ill prepared for the northerly, the sou'westerly etc.
It is well insulated ( walls cannot be insulated inside nor out without complaints from English heritage, the Campaign for Rural England, the council, and any other warm acosy party.
Double glazing is allowed and newly complete.
The new Elnur heaters, even programmed carefully ( years of experience with creda, Elnur, etc) lose output by early evening.
Another heater might help bu the load is at its limit.
We have had a calor gas heater. The bottles are too heavy to change.
What else? Let's check....ah, the 27p you misinterpret.
You will see I'm predicting a further 10p rise in October, the current cost being 17p/kw. If we go from 7p to 27 or 28 even it's a fourfold increase in 7 months.
Hm...what else? Have I missed anything? Tablets! Got to go.
Seriously though, I am grateful and perhaps intrigued, for and with your forensic questioning. 
Your turn to humour me perhaps.
Please stay cool during this unseasonably warm spell.
RTP

k_man

Apologies for all the questions, we thought the purpose of your post was to ask for assistance.

agentcain

You are correct OP. E7 tariffs have been unreasonable disadvantaged and the reported cap rise is nowhere near the rise that E7 customers see. As with everything else from politicians, bankers, activists etc we are of course the ones to blame, the consumers. This forum will blame you for wasting energy, not doing enough to reduce it, accuse you of being arrogant or selfish, anything apart from blaming the real culprits. The real situation is that the market has failed us, the regulator has failed us, no one takes responsibility, no one is actually doing anything remotely useful and at the end of the day the consumer will pay for everything.  

Mstty

Questions do tend to help get to the crux of the issues.

Sadly like many others you took the generic energy consumer 54% price cap rise in the media.

Not the first and not the last to do this. Wait for the 65% + average energy consumer price cap rise due in October.

I am surprised you got a goodwill gesture offer. Unless there was more to your complaint?

Ragged1953

Why apologize for the questions?
My first line response was the equivalent of " where to begin?". A nonverbal nod to say, I'm thinking about which is the one to answer first. Things can get muddled otherwise and nobody benefits.
The purposes of the initial post were certainly and primarily to seek help, views etc from a network of experienced posters. The second aim was to engage hopefully with others in a similar pickle, to share ideas, offer suggestions and perhaps discover solutions hitherto hidden from view.
So, thanks for giving me an opportunity to make that clearer.

Ragged1953

Good evening Mstty.... questions... precisely. I was a little unclear as to the point of the brief question about questions. Easily done with so many bits of information.
Indeed I was surprised they Offered me £25.
As I said above, I declined their resolution ( their word) yet it appeared as a credit online yesterday. 
And there was nothing else...no pictures, no party, no tractors being viewed, no visit to a castle.
Jusa straightforward gift/bribe?
The problem is exacerbated by different advisors replying to each email. Having to repeat it all ( or is that the surgery?).
Cheers, thanks and take care 

QrizB

Ragged1953 said:

The max costings were obviously for the extreme weather this elevated position, between a north and south coast ( a peninsula therefore) enjoys more frequently than sheltered inland and urban sites.

OK, so your £630/month is for the worst month of the worst winter. You'll agree, then, that your bills are likely to be lower than that (and, conversely, those of us who generally talk about "typical" bills will be paying more in the same circumstances).

Just for context, I had a 3-bed semi with storage heaters (admittedly not a character property like yours) for nine years and my highest annual electricity use was around 9000kWh.

The new Elnur heaters, even programmed carefully ( years of experience with creda, Elnur, etc) lose output by early evening.

How new, exactly, and how warm do you keep your house? High Heat Retention heaters (if that's what they are) should not leak energy so if they're cold it's because you've used the stored heat.
And are they all 24kWh models, or are some smaller than that? You may have missed that question.

Elnur model numbers would help with both the above points.

What else? Let's check....ah, the 27p you misinterpret.

You will see I'm predicting a further 10p rise in October, the current cost being 17p/kw.

sorry for my misinterpretation, this line in your opening post led me astray:

To heat one heater for one night will cost £5.42 if the Autumn increase is 35% more.

17p to 27p is an increase of almost 60%, not 35%, hence my confusion.

Let me cut to the chase as it's getting on for my bedtime.

Yes, if we have a terrible winter where you need to use 100kWh/day of E7 electricity at 28p/kWh for a whole month to heat your home , it will cost you around £870. That's simple maths.

If you want to spend less on energy, you can switch to a cheaper source (oil or LPG are both around 10p/kWh at present, for example) and/or use less of it.

Ragged1953

Good night QrizB

My estimated future figures were conditional, hence the use of " if " in the projected/predicted Autumn price cap.

We have considered changing to lpg and/or variants.
A large green tank is unacceptable. ( See previous post re restrictions... can't even have a cowl on the chimnor a TV dish screwed to the wall).
The capital costs might, I repeat might, negate the cost savings wished for.
Lpg in portable mode, stand-alone heaters with tanks present a physical challenge as mentioned.

All of this has been or will be considered further. Capital expenditure has a risk if this energy crisis lasts only 18 months.
Of course the real issue is that an energy supplier increased the night rate by 132% without warning, without regard for the financial or health impacts, on customers who by the tariff's nature has a significantly higher % of vulnerable people living in older properties and some needing life support machines at home, every evening.

The suppliers and Regulators....
They're the ones who need to answer questions.
They're the ones that need to examine alternatives.
They're the ones that need to understand the consequences of their choices.
Over and out.
Ragged TP

pochase

agentcain said:

You are correct OP. E7 tariffs have been unreasonable disadvantaged and the reported cap rise is nowhere near the rise that E7 customers see. As with everything else from politicians, bankers, activists etc we are of course the ones to blame, the consumers. This forum will blame you for wasting energy, not doing enough to reduce it, accuse you of being arrogant or selfish, anything apart from blaming the real culprits. The real situation is that the market has failed us, the regulator has failed us, no one takes responsibility, no one is actually doing anything remotely useful and at the end of the day the consumer will pay for everything.  

Why do you feel that E7 users have been so unfairly disadvantaged?

People heating with gas have seen a 70% plus increase in April, and by current predictions will see another 94% increase in October.

Gas prices will go up from 4p in March to over 14p per KWh, that is an increase of over 250%. To the contrary of what you are saying prices are shifting in favour of electricity.