NHS Pension

Lowtrawler

spaniel101 said:

Lowtrawler said:

My wife and I will be 58 shortly and we plan to continue working until 62. My wife works for the NHS in Scotland and has built up the following pensions:

·       NHS England: Deferred Pension, payable at 60 of £5,500 with Lump Sum of £16,500

·       NHS Scotland, 1995 Scheme: Payable at 60 (but I believe can’t be taken if she continues to pay into the 2015 scheme?) £5,500 with lump sum of £16,500

·       NHS Scotland, 2015 scheme: Payable at 67, £2,100

·       NHS Scotland, Additional Pension: Payable at 67, £1,000

I estimate that if she remains in the 2015 scheme and continues to pay towards the additional pension, at 62 she will have £3,600 in the 2015 scheme and £1,900 of Additional Pension (all at today’s prices before uplifting for inflation / pay increases)

2 questions:

1.       At 60, I believe she will be able to claim the NHS England deferred pension, even if she remains a member of the NHS Scotland scheme?

2.       Is there any way she would also be able to claim the NHS Scotland 1995 scheme pension at age 60 whilst continuing to pay into the 2015 scheme and additional pension? I know the answer to this question in the past has always been no, is this changed or likely to change?

Im going to ask the obvious just for clarity, are the 2 above definately 2 seperate entities, or one and the same (transferred in to Scotland) ?


Final salary link is if you have a break in service/membership of 5 years or more (then becomes Deferred/unlinked).   In these circumstances, you can join/continue paying into 2015 scheme whilst taking your (Deferred) 1995 scheme.   Indeed, if the break was 5 years or less (linked), you cannot join/continue to pay into 2015 scheme.   (2008 scheme you can join/continue 2015 scheme, regardless).   

https://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/2019-11/Final Salary Linking Turning Point Presentation 2018.pdf

Hi, yes, definitely 2 separate entities.  When my wife joined NHS Scotland from NHS England in 1999, she was offered the opportunity to transfer her NHS England Pension but chose to leave it as deferred instead.

Lowtrawler

So, I haven't seen anything clearly laid out but based on all my reading my conclusion is as follows:

1. My wife will be able to claim the NHS England 1995 scheme pension and continue to pay into the NHS Scotland 2015 scheme pension, unaffected, because she has no salary link between the NHS England Pension and the NHS Scotland Pension.
2. She cannot take the NHS Scotland 1995 scheme pension without stopping payments into the 2015 scheme pension AND reducing her hours, for at least a month, to less than 16 hours per week.

If anyone has a different view, pleased to hear.

Lowtrawler

I have had the following response from NHS Scotland (SPPA):

"In order to withdraw your NHS England pension, you will need to retire from all NHS jobs across the UK which includes your one with ourselves. This means you will also need to take a 24 hour break in service before returning to work. 
Once you take your final salary pension from us, you can no longer pay into the 2015 CARE scheme."

I have gone back to them with the following query:

can you clarify the following:

 “In order to withdraw your NHS England pension, you will need to retire from all NHS jobs across the UK which includes your one with ourselves. This means you will also need to take a 24 hour break in service before returning to work.” Does this mean, so long as I take a 24 hour break in employment, I can claim the NHS England 1995 scheme pension and continue to pay into the 2015 scheme in NHS Scotland? Are there any restrictions on the hours I would be able to work after doing this?

Lowtrawler

I had the following response to my query:

"1) When you claim your NHS England 1995 Scheme you will be, in effect, retiring from the NHS in its entirety. You can certainly take a 24 hour break in service from the date you retire to going back to work. You would not be able to re-join the scheme when you go back to work. There is a regulation where you can only work for a maximum of 16 hours per week for the first calendar month following your retirement. 

 2) You would not be able to re-join the 2015 Scheme when returning to work."

I have gone back with the following query: 

This appears to contradict the NHS England advice as linked below:

 https://nhsbsa-live.powerappsportals.com/knowledgebase/article/KA-04151/en-us

 This states:

 “If you have deferred benefits in the 1995 Section and you are currently a member of the 2008 Section or 2015 Scheme it may be possible for you to claim your 1995 Section benefits and continue to pay into the 2008 Section or 2015 Scheme. You will not need to take a 24 hour break from your current NHS job, or restrict your working hours.”

 As my NHS England 1995 scheme pension is deferred, does this not allow me to claim those benefits while continuing to pay into the 2015 Scheme in NHS Scotland?

Lowtrawler

If the position explained by NHS Scotland does not alter, my wife will not be able to claim her NHS England Pension and continue to pay into the NHS Scotland 2015 scheme.

At 60, she could choose to leave the NHS pension schemes, subject to taking a 24 hour break in employment and reducing hours to 16 per week in the 1st month, and then be receiving £11k per year of pension from the 2 x 1995 Schemes. She could also join the NHS Stakeholder Pension and get a 3% employer contribution which, together with reduced contributions into the stakeholder pension compared to the 2015 pension, will give her £1650 per year of benefits, The additional 2 years of service to 62, would only give her an extra 2015 Scheme Pension of £750 per year, payable from 67, and she will have foregone £25.3k of benefits during those 2 years (2 x£11k pension payments + 2 x £600 Employer Stakeholder contribution + 2 x £1050 net saving in employee contribution). 

On a constant money basis, it will take almost 34 years from 67 to recover the benefits foregone i.e. she would need to live to 101. Even allowing for a 2% additional annual uplift from the 2015 scheme compared to the return being made on the savings, she would only start to be better off in her early 90's.

In other words, if the advice provided by NHS Scotland does not alter, it will be a rare case where my wife will actually be better off exiting the NHS 2015 Pension Scheme to join the NHS Stakeholder Pension when she is 60.

Flugelhorn

I took the pension at 60 and dropped one of my jobs, but carried on with others - carrying on and not taking a 1995 scheme would have been madness, I would have lost loads

saucer

Lowtrawler said:

I had the following response to my query:

"1) When you claim your NHS England 1995 Scheme you will be, in effect, retiring from the NHS in its entirety. You can certainly take a 24 hour break in service from the date you retire to going back to work. You would not be able to re-join the scheme when you go back to work. There is a regulation where you can only work for a maximum of 16 hours per week for the first calendar month following your retirement. 

 2) You would not be able to re-join the 2015 Scheme when returning to work."

I have gone back with the following query: 

This appears to contradict the NHS England advice as linked below:

 https://nhsbsa-live.powerappsportals.com/knowledgebase/article/KA-04151/en-us

 This states:

 “If you have deferred benefits in the 1995 Section and you are currently a member of the 2008 Section or 2015 Scheme it may be possible for you to claim your 1995 Section benefits and continue to pay into the 2008 Section or 2015 Scheme. You will not need to take a 24 hour break from your current NHS job, or restrict your working hours.”

 As my NHS England 1995 scheme pension is deferred, does this not allow me to claim those benefits while continuing to pay into the 2015 Scheme in NHS Scotland?

I agree that seems like a complete contradiction. The difficulty can be in getting reliable information from them in advance of what are very important decisions. At least they are responding to you. I had a specific query around protected pay that was eventually passed or escalated to the department who specifically deal with that issue who gave definitive information. Your situation is different but I’m saying that it is worth persisting. Good luck.

spaniel101

Its slightly different if you have Deferred (1995) membership / current 2015 membership/employment, at least in England.

If I claim my pension after my Normal Pension Age, will it be backdated?

Views: 3994

If you are no longer paying in to the NHS Pension Scheme and apply for your pension after your normal pension age it may be backdated but this would depend on when you left NHS employment.
 
If you have not worked in the NHS since your normal pension age and apply for your benefits at a later date, your pension will be backdated to your normal pension age. You will therefore receive a mandatory taxable back payment of your pension benefits. Please be aware that you cannot choose the date in which your back payment of benefits will be paid into your account.
 
If you are an active member of the NHS Pension Scheme, you are still paying in and accruing pensionable membership whether or not you are over your normal pension age, your benefits will only become payable from the point that you cease NHS employment.  Therefore there is no backdating of pension to your normal pension age.
 
If you opted out of the pension but continued to work in the NHS until after your normal pension age your benefits can only be paid from the point at which you cease NHS employment. You will therefore not be entitled to have your pension backdated to your normal pension age.  Should you wish to start claiming your NHS pension and then return to NHS employment you can do, however certain restrictions apply in relation to returning to work after retirement.
 
The above would not apply if you have preserved benefits in the 1995 Section and benefits in the 2008 Section and you are claiming your 1995 Section benefits. In this scenario you do not need to take a break in employment to claim your 1995 Section benefits and they would be backdated to your 60th birthday if you have continued to work in the NHS after this date, regardless of whether you are still paying in to the 2008 Section or not.
 
If you have preserved benefits in the 1995 Section and benefits in the 2015 Scheme and you are claiming your 1995 Section benefits you do not need to take a break in employment to claim your 1995 Section benefits. The pension payments will be backdated to your 60th birthday if you have continued to work in the NHS after this date.


https://faq.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/knowledgebase/article/KA-04594/en-us

Lowtrawler

At least they are quick to respond but unfortunately I have hit a poor outcome, this is their response:

"I'm afraid not as the NHS Scotland scheme may have different regulations to the NHS England scheme.

With ourselves, once you have taken your 1995 pension, you can no longer contribute into the 2015 CARE scheme."

I don't see any room to manoeuvre on this now?

As my wife is already only working 2.5 days per week, it will make sense for her to temporarily drop to 2 days (to meet the first month 16 hours and a 24 hour break in employment), take both 1995 Scheme pensions and move onto the NHS Stakeholder pension.

Lowtrawler

As a final effort, I have responded to them as below:

According to the SPPA guide below:

 https://pensions.gov.scot/nhs/retiring-nhs/going-back-work

It says: There are a small number of exceptions to the 24 hour break rule. You don’t have to take a break if:

• you’re in the 1995 section and have more than one contract, you must take a 24 hour break from one of your posts, but do not need to take a break from other contracts provided they're less than 16 hours a week
• you’re an active member of the 2015 scheme and you’re only claiming preserved benefits from the 1995 or 2008 Sections that aren’t linked to your current salary

This appears to imply that the guidance provided by NHS England also applies to the SPPA i.e. because I have 2 x 1995 Scheme contracts and only intend to claim the NHS England 1995 Scheme pension which is not linked to my current salary, I would be able to take the NHS England 1995 Scheme pension without taking a 24 hour break in employment and continue paying into the 2015 Scheme pension. I would need to move to working less than 16 hours per week.

Is this not the case?