Cannot afford repairs and unsure of options

Bendy_House

Could you post a photo of your CU, Trwill?

trwil

Quick update

Had a friend of a friend who is an electrician come in, he took a few sockets off and looked at the cabling and its its old colours, but all pcv wiring and looks in decent nick

He said he thinks no rewire required, but would suggest he comes in and tests the circuits and wiring (condition report) to see if i am ok for a new rcd consumer unit.

All great, one negative however, i was saying i need everything certificated etc..and he said we would get that, but said his boss would sign off on the work as he is fully qualified but not NICEIC registered and his boss signs the work off

Is this dodgy? would you get someone else in who is registered? The guy was so good (he fitted a junction box for free) that i am happy to consider him but the lack of registration bothers me, is this like having a gas guy with no gas safe registration?

Ebe_Scrooge

trwil said:

Had a friend of a friend who is an electrician come in, he took a few sockets off and looked at the cabling and its its old colours, but all pcv wiring and looks in decent nick

He said he thinks no rewire required, but would suggest he comes in and tests the circuits and wiring (condition report) to see if i am ok for a new rcd consumer unit.

All great, one negative however, i was saying i need everything certificated etc..and he said we would get that, but said his boss would sign off on the work as he is fully qualified but not NICEIC registered and his boss signs the work off

Is this dodgy? would you get someone else in who is registered? The guy was so good (he fitted a junction box for free) that i am happy to consider him but the lack of registration bothers me, is this like having a gas guy with no gas safe registration?

Why do you need the work to be certified?  It's different if you are renting your house out to someone else, I know there are loads of rules 'n' regulations concerning that.  But if it's a private house that you live in, it's entirely up to you.

Of course, common sense would dictate that you want someone "competent" to be doing stuff.  But if your mate is a properly qualified electrician and you trust him, then I don't see a problem.

On the face of it I don't really see any cause for concern.  He may not have passed all the exams or whatever to be allowed to sign off work, but that doesn't mean he's not a competent electrician.  For me, the question would be - is he properly qualified to carry out electrical work (not to necessarily sign it off), and do you trust him?

And I don't know for sure, but I can well imagine it's fairly expensive to get the "registration" to be able to sign off work like this.  So it's not unreasonable, especially for a fairly small local firm, to have several properly-qualified people doing the ground-work, but only the boss is registered to sign stuff off.  And if it is a small firm, and the boss values his local reputation, he won't be signing any old job off willy-nilly.

trwil

Ebe_Scrooge said:

trwil said:

Had a friend of a friend who is an electrician come in, he took a few sockets off and looked at the cabling and its its old colours, but all pcv wiring and looks in decent nick

He said he thinks no rewire required, but would suggest he comes in and tests the circuits and wiring (condition report) to see if i am ok for a new rcd consumer unit.

All great, one negative however, i was saying i need everything certificated etc..and he said we would get that, but said his boss would sign off on the work as he is fully qualified but not NICEIC registered and his boss signs the work off

Is this dodgy? would you get someone else in who is registered? The guy was so good (he fitted a junction box for free) that i am happy to consider him but the lack of registration bothers me, is this like having a gas guy with no gas safe registration?

Why do you need the work to be certified?  It's different if you are renting your house out to someone else, I know there are loads of rules 'n' regulations concerning that.  But if it's a private house that you live in, it's entirely up to you.

Of course, common sense would dictate that you want someone "competent" to be doing stuff.  But if your mate is a properly qualified electrician and you trust him, then I don't see a problem.

On the face of it I don't really see any cause for concern.  He may not have passed all the exams or whatever to be allowed to sign off work, but that doesn't mean he's not a competent electrician.  For me, the question would be - is he properly qualified to carry out electrical work (not to necessarily sign it off), and do you trust him?

And I don't know for sure, but I can well imagine it's fairly expensive to get the "registration" to be able to sign off work like this.  So it's not unreasonable, especially for a fairly small local firm, to have several properly-qualified people doing the ground-work, but only the boss is registered to sign stuff off.  And if it is a small firm, and the boss values his local reputation, he won't be signing any old job off willy-nilly.

The registration is nothing to do with qualifications, i think its a register to regulate them, so you can be fully qualified as he is (and he came across really well) but not registered

I was under the impression that major work such as a new fuse box needed to involve building reg notification and either self certifying by the electrician (who needs to be registered) or by paying for building regs to inspect the work- but i could be wrong

I will insist on any payment going through the books for electrics and ask about building regs and take it from there

Thanks

onomatopoeia99

You're right, for notifiable work it needs LABC notification and either self-certification by someone registered with an appropriate trade body (there are a few) or a LABC inspection which you have to pay for (£400 round my way).

But it is still not clear what work you actually need to have done.  Lack of an RCD consumer unit does not mean that you need to have one fitted.

trwil

onomatopoeia99 said:

You're right, for notifiable work it needs LABC notification and either self-certification by someone registered with an appropriate trade body (there are a few) or a LABC inspection which you have to pay for (£400 round my way).

But it is still not clear what work you actually need to have done.  Lack of an RCD consumer unit does not mean that you need to have one fitted.

To be honest, i want a modern CU anyway, he showed me the fuse components today, and inside the little boxes there are pieces of wire!!

He said my wiring is considerably more up to date than the box, so the wiring has been updated but not the box.

I am just trying to get my head around what would be reasonable due diligence if i use this guy? he is a friend of a friend... so i am thinking ask about building notifications and how that would be handled, and also insist on money having to go through a company rather than personal account?

FreeBear

trwil said: To be honest, i want a modern CU anyway, he showed me the fuse components today, and inside the little boxes there are pieces of wire!!

Sounds like an old Wylex type consumer unit with just four fuses - Best to get a modern one fitted if only to allow for extra circuits to be added. It also gets rid of one source of asbestos in the house.

markin

trwil said:

onomatopoeia99 said:

You're right, for notifiable work it needs LABC notification and either self-certification by someone registered with an appropriate trade body (there are a few) or a LABC inspection which you have to pay for (£400 round my way).

But it is still not clear what work you actually need to have done.  Lack of an RCD consumer unit does not mean that you need to have one fitted.

To be honest, i want a modern CU anyway, he showed me the fuse components today, and inside the little boxes there are pieces of wire!!

He said my wiring is considerably more up to date than the box, so the wiring has been updated but not the box.

I am just trying to get my head around what would be reasonable due diligence if i use this guy? he is a friend of a friend... so i am thinking ask about building notifications and how that would be handled, and also insist on money having to go through a company rather than personal account?

You don't involve LABC at £400 when you use a company that can self cert, Its normal for people to let their membership lapse or not bother if they join a company, Its not free to be a member. 

Bendy_House

trwil said:

He said he thinks no rewire required, but would suggest he comes in and tests the circuits and wiring (condition report) to see if i am ok for a new rcd consumer unit.

Trwill, did you understand the point I made in my previous post about the choice of breaker for your new CU?

A modern CU provides protection in two ways. The first is from excessive current being drawn, like you'd get if two wires touched where they shouldn't (a 'short-circuit'), or if the circuit was over-loaded (say, by too many electric heaters being run).

That is what pops fuses, or trips their modern replacement, the MCB (miniature circuit breaker).

Then there's the RCD (residual current device?). This is very different, and detects TINY current 'leakages' or 'imbalances'. These leakages can happen when, for example, sockets and switches become damp, and allow tiny currents to leak to earth. Or if some twit accidentally touches a wire. (They can also work in a different, very clever, way; any appliance that draws power 'should' have EXACTLY the same current flowing in both the Live and Neutral wires, yes? If the appliance also has a 'leak' inside it, this will instead cause an imbalance between these two currents, and the RCD will pick up on this and trip. Fab.)

The tripping current is around 30mA, so tiny. Designed to cut the power before you're deed.

Ok, that's all good, but an issue can (and often does...) happen, especially in older wiring, where sockets and fittings can naturally leak teeny-tiny amounts, which is perfectly acceptable. A few mA here from an outside light fitting, a couple there from the TV, an older oven element even seeping 10mA all on its own, that sort of thing. Before long, the TOTAL leakage is hovering in the mid-high 20s of mA, which is still ok and not a concern. But CUs with a SINGLE main RCD is now a bit 'trigger-happy', and you might find turning on the oven, or even a light, will sometimes cause the RCD to pop as the total leakage even briefly touches the 30mA threshold. It even - as in my case last year - can go through a phase of tripping for no associated reason, and at different - seemingly random - times of the day and night, and my sparky put it down to an external situation, as he had a similar issue with another house in the 'hood. When the main RCD trips, you will lose all or many circuits - eg all the lights can go off - so it's not for nothing it's referred to as 'nuisance' tripping. It's not only a bludy nuisance trying to reset the RCD in the dark, but an even bigger one trying (often in vain) to locate the cause, as sometimes there just isn't 'one'.

So, that's why I suggested considering fitting a CU with RCBOs instead of MCBs and a single (or two) RCDs. These are effectively MCBs with an RCD built in to EACH one. If one circuit now leak-trips, only that one circuit goes off - much less of a nuisance. AND you'll know which one is the culprit.

They cost a bit more, but not that much.

Ectophile

Modern CUs actually have three or four methods of protection:

The circuit breakers to trip if a circuit is overloaded. They replace the old fuses.

The RCDs to protect you from electrocution if something goes wrong and you end up touching a live wire.

Surge protection devices, to protect your appliances should lightning strike a power line nearby. (But there are limits to the amount of protection they can give)

Arc fault detection devices cut the power if a broken contact starts arcing. At the moment, they are only recommended in ordinary homes. And they are expensive.