Tenancy Deposit Dispute - Is this shady practice from the LA/LL?

ThatGeekPez

Hi,

Long time MSE lurker and first time poster. I didn’t think of the forums when looking for advice of a tenancy dispute.

I’ve recently moved out of a property we were renting and moved into a new one. We received the check-out report and 30 days later (after multiple emails from my partner) we got the final value/invoice. The request from the LA was that the LL wanted £280 from £1300.

We cleaned ourselves, and it was left in a better condition than how we received it. We noted issues that we had:

The Inventory – It had been produced while building/contractor work was being done, and prior to a professional clean. It was only stated a professional would be done after. We also emailed about discrepancies on the bathroom:

-          A bathroom mirror and cabinet on the walls, when there were none

-          Carpet in the bathroom, when it was vinyl (and had a stain)

-          The window being of good condition, though wear and tear – the bottom frame of the top sash window had completely eroded

The LA had stated in emails that they had taken those updates through emails

The Check-Out Report – There were discrepancies, such as

-          The updates to the update above were not included

-          Items they knew were damaged in the inventory, were now our responsibility

o   Burns in the window sill, as noted by the inventory (we’re non-smokers)

-          Items missing, which could be seen missing in the 360 photos of the rooms in the inventory

o   Valve caps from radiators, could all be seen missing in the 360 photos

-          Items stated to have been left by us, were items that were left by the previous tenants, again, shown by the 360 photos

o   A “bedroom cabinet”, which was the bathroom cabinet when we moved in that was meant to be removed

We questioned their confirmation of a pre-tenancy professional clean, and they sent us an invoice of that too

The Invoices – Both invoices are missing key information:

-          A unique invoice number

-          A clear description of what is being charged

o   Our invoice says:

§  Collect keys.

§  Carry out clean of property as stated in the Check Out Report.

§  Leave property ready for occupancy by new tenant.

§  Return Keys.

·         Transport, labour and materials - £280.00

o   We already stated multiple discrepancies about the check-out report to LA

-          Supply Date – There’s only invoice dates

We’re unable to find the cleaners on Companies House or on search engines, but upon searching the address, it’s used as for an Asset Management PLC that’s had the LL previously as a Director/Assessor until 2014.

The invoices were also sent to us as Word documents, not PDFs. Initially I had looked upon them on my phone, but decided to look on the metadata after a forum post, at the origin details. For the pre-tenancy clean invoice, in the origin section of the file

-          The author is the LL

-          It was last saved by the person we’re speaking to at the LA

-          The Revision Number is 2, which means the original file by the LL was later saved by the LA.

o   There is no need to save the original file, unless edits were made

-          The Content Created section is 16/06/22 15:04pm

o   This was an hour before I was sent the invoice by email, at 4:14pm the same day.

Looking at the LL’s information on Companies House, there’s no mention of the cleaning company, or any cleaners at all, just a bunch of addresses that we believe are other flats. If I’m right, it should be confirming his full name (if as a sole trader) or the parent company (if a limited company? I’m not sure on that one).

Upon giving this information to the LA (except for the metadata, which I’ve only just found out about) they confirmed they’ll halve the fee to £140.)

I’m going to dispute with the TDS (the deposit is with them) but is this shady practice. If it is, where can I go to give this information?

I’m not sure I’ll look at suing, but at the very least I want to bring this information out to others in case they go through the same thing.

What do I do in this situation?

Many thanks,

TGP.

 

 

 

 

 

ThatGeekPez

I forgot to mention, the work wasn't completed by builders/contractors by the time we moved in. We do have photos of the work that needed doing, and emails of other things. Part of the pre-tenancy clean states the removal of items, which had not been fully done by the time we moved in too.

RAS

Go to the scheme site and claim your entire deposit back. If the LL challenges it, they have to produce evidence that you damaged stuff. You have ample evidence otherwise, which the scheme will consider as well.

Generally a good idea to claim the lot back a week or so after leaving anyway.

Do you have photo evidence of when you left?

ThatGeekPez

We have some photos of the general overview of the home when we moved in, and we have some photos of the general overview of the home when we left. We should have done more but this is my first move into a place and my partner had lived in the first place she moved into for 10 years (we're renting another place from that same landlord, as they had a good rapport during that time)

I didn't expect them to get so close into the corners of rooms and such (they did nothing like that in the inventory, and only had 360 photos)

RAS

OK, if they have any evidence of outgoing "issues", they need evidence on the incoming inventory that the situation was worse.

TripleH

If you have emails that included your challenging the inventory / agreeing another one then attach those to your claim. If you have time stamped pictures attach them as part of your claim.

When we were exiting our last rental property they tried to charge us for chewed kitchen units blaming our cats. The chew marks were dogs and preexisting us (there were a few other points they tried to claim).

We were awarded all our deposit simply because they didn't give us the check in report they claimed as condition on entry. We would have queried several items on it had we been given it.

canaldumidi

ThatGeekPez said:

. The request from the LA was that the LL wanted £280 from £1300.

Is this broken down into the cost od each item?

We cleaned ourselves I should hope so too! Always a good idea to have a good shower at the end of the working day....

, and it was left in a better condition than how we received it. We noted issues that we had:

The Inventory – It had been produced while building/contractor work was being done, and prior to a professional clean. It was only stated a professional would be done after.

Wll - was a professional clean done once the builders finished? Was this noted and acknowledged by you at the time?

We also emailed about discrepancies on the bathroom:

-          A bathroom mirror and cabinet on the walls, when there were none Is this relevant? Has the LL claimed forthe miror/cabinet? How much?

-          Carpet in the bathroom, when it was vinyl (and had a stain) Is this relevant? Has the LL claimed for the carpet? How much?

-          The window being of good condition, though wear and tear – the bottom frame of the top sash window had completely eroded Is this relevant? Has the LL claimed for the window? How much?

The LA had stated in emails that they had taken those updates through emails

The Check-Out Report – There were discrepancies, such as

-          The updates to the update above were not included No idea what you mean. Check out report assesses the current state. That's all.

-          Items they knew were damaged in the inventory, were now our responsibility Pleaselist them, with costs claimed.

o   Burns in the window sill, as noted by the inventory (we’re non-smokers) OK

-          Items missing, which could be seen missing in the 360 photos of the rooms in the inventory Please list with costs

o   Valve caps from radiators, could all be seen missing in the 360 photos So LLis claiming for these? Costs?

-          Items stated to have been left by us, were items that were left by the previous tenants, again, shown by the 360 photos were these items on the inventory? If not why did you not either sell/disposeof them?

o   A “bedroom cabinet”, which was the bathroom cabinet when we moved in that was meant to be removed Please clarify. TheLLis claiming this is missing? Or you have abandoned it sothere'sacost toremove it? Or what?

We questioned their confirmation of a pre-tenancy professional clean, and they sent us an invoice of that too

As asked above, was a professional clean done post builders or not?

The Invoices – Both invoices are missing key information: What 'both'?

-          A unique invoice number So what?

-          A clear description of what is being charged The invoice need not specify though the claim for deductions should specify what needed cleaning

o   Our invoice says:

§  Collect keys. Did the LL/agent have tocollect keys from you? If yes, why did you not return them as required at the endofyour tenancy?

§  Carry out clean of property as stated in the Check Out Report. See above

§  Leave property ready for occupancy by new tenant. Mad! That's not your responsibility

§  Return Keys.

·         Transport, labour and materials - £280.00 That sems excessive. How far did the LL/agent have to travel? What 'materials'?

o   We already stated multiple discrepancies about the check-out report to LA

-          Supply Date – There’s only invoice dates So what?

We’re unable to find the cleaners on Companies House or on search engines, but upon searching the address, it’s used as for an Asset Management PLC that’s had the LL previously as a Director/Assessor until 2014. Sowhat? Irrelevant. What matters is whether a clean was required, and if so whether the cost was reasonable, not who did it (or indeed who did not do it as there's no obligation on the LL do it!)

The invoices were also sent to us as Word documents, not PDFs. Initially I had looked upon them on my phone, but decided to look on the metadata after a forum post, at the origin details. For the pre-tenancy clean invoice, in the origin section of the file Irrelevant

-          The author is the LL Irrelevant

-          It was last saved by the person we’re speaking to at the LA Irrelevant

-          The Revision Number is 2, which means the original file by the LL was later saved by the LA. Irrelevant

o   There is no need to save the original file, unless edits were made

-          The Content Created section is 16/06/22 15:04pm Irrelevant

o   This was an hour before I was sent the invoice by email, at 4:14pm the same day. Irrelevant

Looking at the LL’s information on Companies House, there’s no mention of the cleaning company, or any cleaners at all, just a bunch of addresses that we believe are other flats. If I’m right, it should be confirming his full name (if as a sole trader) or the parent company (if a limited company? I’m not sure on that one). Irrelevant

Upon giving this information to the LA (except for the metadata, which I’ve only just found out about) they confirmed they’ll halve the fee to £140.) Generous.

I’m going to dispute with the TDS (the deposit is with them) but is this shady practice. No, though not all the deductions may be justified If it is, where can I go to give this information? Nowhere

What do I do in this situation?

You look at each deduction individually and decide if you think it's fair/justified or not. If they are all justified, accept the reduced offer. If not, appeal to the deposit scheme.

Forget all the rubbish about who owns what company, who wrote what invoice, who did the cleaning etc and focus simply on

* what specific items are being claimed as missing or needing cleaning. If you disagree, present evidence that the items are not missing and/or did not need cleaning

* any items missing/needing cleaning, were the cost claimed reasonable (irrelevant whether there's an invoice or not - the LL is under no obligation to actually replace missing items or undertake cleaning.)

ThatGeekPez

Hi all, thanks for the updates thus far. My proof-reading wasn't fantastic before reading this, it's been a long couple of days and I'm tired.

Most importantly, I'm in full support of a shower after a hard day's work, for cleanliness purposes and just to help aching muscles/joints (needed a good laugh after a long day, thanks for making me have a good chuckle)

The Inventory - There was no proof given to us that a professional clean was done after the building/contractor work was done, and we did not sign or acknowledge anything to confirm it had been professionally cleaned prior to us moving in. All we have is an inventory that confirms in general and as an overview of every room that building/contractor work was being done, a full inventory could not be done and that it was stated a full clean would be done after.

We have emails to say that things were not fully completed, and have their responses.

The invoices - I meant to say we have two invoices.

• Our check-out invoice - For £280.00, which only had the four points (Collect keys, Carry out clean based on Check Out Report, Leave property ready for new tenants, Return Keys)

My partner returned the keys to the LA on the day we left the property to their office, face-to-face (no leaving in an envelope and popping it through the letterbox). The "Collect Keys/Return Keys" appears to be the cleaner collecting from the LA, which we thought was odd. 

The check-out report has a lot of discrepancies and it made it unclear what the invoice was charging for. We'll look to ask them to specify what required cleaning because it does look vague.

• The pre-tenancy invoice - For £260.00. It had the same four points, as on our invoice written the same, and three more (To professionally clean oven & hob, Clean windows, Remove items left by Tenant to outside ready for removal by others)

With these, we have emails/photos that back up that a lot of this hadn't been done by when we moved in.

The metadata could back up the above issues because of when it was made and how the LL and LA have been in the document, as they have tried to make it seem it was a professional cleaning company that did this. I can see so far that it doesn't matter compared to the photos/email that confirm work wasn't done/completed by the time we had moved in, as their invoice states.

Thanks for all the advice. It's been a massive help. I'll look to help on a few posts (the easy ones mind, like "where to buy a piggy bank" or something

doodling

Hi,

Forget whether there was any form of professional cleaning, that is a complete red herring. The only question is whether you left the property in the same state as it was when you got it, minus fair wear and tear and any changes agreed with the landlord/agent.

If you left the property in the same condition then the landlord should not be successful.in their claim.

You can point out in your claim for the deposit back that the invoice presented appears to be fraudulent, but that only becomes relevant if the combination of your evidence and the landlord's evidence leads the deposit dispute people to conclude that you did leave the place dirtier.

theartfullodger

RAS said:

Go to the scheme site and claim your entire deposit back. If the LL challenges it, they have to produce evidence that you damaged stuff. You have ample evidence otherwise, which the scheme will consider as well.

Generally a good idea to claim the lot back a week or so after leaving anyway.
....

+1 Definitely

ThatGeekPez

Hi all, thanks for the advice.

In the end, it's been dropped to £80 and we've accepted that. I was conflicted between accepting it or making the dispute. My partner and I had agreed a fair amount which this was close to (£75) and with other things going on, I was too fatigued to keep on at this for £80.

I'll be preparing though for this new LA, just in case. I've learnt never trust an LA/LL (unless you get one that's golden)