Few questions (including detection time)

mikeylpool

Morning,

Does anyone know how long you have to be stationary for a incident to be recorded as parking?

Received a PCN for pulling into a KFC car park early morning. Was with my daughter to drop off to meet her friend. We waited in the car for a few mins then she left.  I made a quick call then went on my way.  Total of 10 mins.  The PCN states that no parking is permitted prior to 10am (or after 11,30).
Wondering if anyone knows how long you need to be stopped for the machines to detect you?  I'm going to go and check the signage to see what there is around, but in theory it's very likely you'd need to stop in order to go and read the sign (a few times to understand it), so surely there must be some grace,

Also, If you are sat in the car the entire time is it classed as "parking" (we couldn't just drive off and leave her there waiting for her friend)?

The place we stopped is in a retail park and it seems each section of the park has it's own parking rules.  The main bit has 2 hr max waiting but any time of the day, so natural assumption was this applied everywhere on the site (I might have been naive).  Probably down to perhaps different landowners.

Thanks all

mikeylpool

Must admit, what p****d me off as well was these letters don't give you any indication of the actual terms and conditions you have supposedly broken.  I'm just supposed to take their word for it.  Going to check the signage isn't quick as where this was isn't really that close to where I live.

Fruitcake

What is the name of the PPC please?

Is the NTK PoFA compliant and capable of holding the keeper liable for the charge.

You need to get photos of the site and signage. Go on foot.
The contract between the motorist and PPC are the Ts and Cs displayed on the signs.

IF ANPR scameras were used, the clock will have started at the moment the vehicle passed them, but if parking outside certain times is not permitted then there may be no grace period at all.

What happened when you complained to the landowner/KFC manager? That is always Plan A. On the other hand, if the driver was not a customer, perhaps they should not have been there.

Have you read the sticky Announcement for NEWBIES yet? This will answer most of your queries.

mikeylpool

Fruitcake said:

What is the name of the PPC please?

Is the NTK PoFA compliant and capable of holding the keeper liable for the charge.

You need to get photos of the site and signage. Go on foot.
The contract between the motorist and PPC are the Ts and Cs displayed on the signs.

IF ANPR scameras were used, the clock will have started at the moment the vehicle passed them, but if parking outside certain times is not permitted then there may be no grace period at all.

What happened when you complained to the landowner/KFC manager? That is always Plan A. On the other hand, if the driver was not a customer, perhaps they should not have been there.

Have you read the sticky Announcement for NEWBIES yet? This will answer most of your queries.

Its UKPC.

I think the thing that winds me up more is that they don't include the T&C you have supposedly breached so you then need to go out your way to investigate further. I'll be checking signage is clearly display and obvious when you approach the land as well.  Even if they are present, you would need to stop to go and read the signage I would have thought.
Or that these rules aren't generally common (that I am aware of), there are plenty of retail parks around that generally have rules for things like duration or "overnight" parking etc, but I'm not seen examples where parking wasn't permitted between certain hours of the day (11.30pm-10am in this case)

Obviously the whole business model of these orgs is that most people will just fume and pay.

fisherjim

`Forget about the sitting in the car argument it won't wash, in any case when they use anpr they are only seeing the vrn not the occupants 

Both IPC and BPA COP's mention grace periods to read signage, the BPA suggests a minimum of 5 minutes, but if the signage on the entrance states no parking between 11.30PM and 10.00AM they will fight that one saying you should not have entered.

You need to realise you are dealing with greedy people not parking management they have no hearts, only wallets to fill.

The newbies thread on here explains it all as in Fruitcake's excellent post above, knowing the PPC and seeing the signage would help

Umkomaas

Never park on any private car park outside of the times so clearly shown as time restricted. In fact just for a short drop off as you've described, park on the road (unless red lined or with kerb blips).

Despite the ingrained subconscious of British motorists, private car parks are not facilities they have - at will - an entitlement to use with impunity. The world of private parking is changing rapidly, but motorists' behaviour is not changing at the same pace. As a result demands for £100 continue to flourish and increase, with no sign whatsoever of any lessening. 

mikeylpool

Umkomaas said:

Never park on any private car park outside of the times so clearly shown as time restricted. In fact just for a short drop off as you've described, park on the road (unless red lined or with kerb blips).

Despite the ingrained subconscious of British motorists, private car parks are not facilities they have - at will - an entitlement to use with impunity. The world of private parking is changing rapidly, but motorists' behaviour is not changing at the same pace. As a result demands for £100 continue to flourish and increase, with no sign whatsoever of any lessening. 

I'm yet to confirm the signage was clear. If it was then the issue wouldn't have arose. I didn't knowingly break any so called T and C. 

Umkomaas

mikeylpool said:

Umkomaas said:

Never park on any private car park outside of the times so clearly shown as time restricted. In fact just for a short drop off as you've described, park on the road (unless red lined or with kerb blips).

Despite the ingrained subconscious of British motorists, private car parks are not facilities they have - at will - an entitlement to use with impunity. The world of private parking is changing rapidly, but motorists' behaviour is not changing at the same pace. As a result demands for £100 continue to flourish and increase, with no sign whatsoever of any lessening. 

I'm yet to confirm the signage was clear. If it was then the issue wouldn't have arose. I didn't knowingly break any so called T and C. 

Checking what the signage actually say is pretty important to your case. 

Going to check the signage isn't quick as where this was isn't really that close to where I live.

If you give us the location, there may be photos already on the forum. Alternatively, does Google Street View give a good enough close up to make the sign(s) readable?

Coupon-mad

Have you read NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST?

The BPA Code of practice sets out the consideration period on arrival. At least 5 minutes, that's all.  That does NOT mean you pay.

Snakes_Belly

"If the signage on the entrance states no parking between 11.30PM and 10.00AM"

Does the signage say that specifically on the entrance to the site?  

I have seen signs that say charges apply between 7.30 am and 18.30 pm which suggests that you can park free outside those times but drivers have still received a PCN.

Was there demarcation between the area's of the car park with differing terms and conditions?    

Le_Kirk

Snakes_Belly said:

"If the signage on the entrance states no parking between 11.30PM and 10.00AM"

Does the signage say that specifically on the entrance to the site?  

I have seen signs that say charges apply between 7.30 am and 18.30 pm which suggests that you can park free outside those times but drivers have still received a PCN.

Was there demarcation between the area's of the car park with differing terms and conditions?    

Oh, yes very ambiguous!  Should the doctrine of Contra Proferentem apply in these cases.  It doesn't specifically say no parking outside of those hours just that charges apply between those hours!