What are my rights regarding a faulty overseas purchase and potential chargebacks?

ghostlyc

Hi there,

In early May I bought an e-bike from an online store in the Netherlands. It took them a month to ship it to me and when it arrived, the motor was damaged (without going into the details too much, it would be dangerous to ride).

I reached out to the store about two weeks ago to ask about a replacement or refund and they told me that they would speak to the manufacturer of the bike to get a replacement. I've been waiting to hear back now for two weeks, but I've not heard anything.

Am I within my rights to request a full refund, since I'm still within 30 days of receiving the bike? Even though they are seemingly (but not effectively) trying to replace the bike? And do these rights still apply with the bike being sold from overseas?

The retailer's customer service is pretty bad, and I'm pretty sure they will be difficult if I do request a refund, so if they do try to fob me off, is this the kind of thing where I should be trying to make a Visa chargeback with my bank? And if so, do I need to ship the faulty bike back out to them (at my expense) before I can do so?

Sorry for the mountains of questions there, I'm just trying to understand what rights I have. The bike was not cheap, and I'm getting increasingly worried that my 30 days is going to run out and I'll be stuck with an expensive bike I can't use.

Thank you for your time

powerful_Rogue

ghostlyc said:

Hi there,

In early May I bought an e-bike from an online store in the Netherlands. It took them a month to ship it to me and when it arrived, the motor was damaged (without going into the details too much, it would be dangerous to ride).

I reached out to the store about two weeks ago to ask about a replacement or refund and they told me that they would speak to the manufacturer of the bike to get a replacement. I've been waiting to hear back now for two weeks, but I've not heard anything.

Am I within my rights to request a full refund, since I'm still within 30 days of receiving the bike? Even though they are seemingly (but not effectively) trying to replace the bike? And do these rights still apply with the bike being sold from overseas?

The retailer's customer service is pretty bad, and I'm pretty sure they will be difficult if I do request a refund, so if they do try to fob me off, is this the kind of thing where I should be trying to make a Visa chargeback with my bank? And if so, do I need to ship the faulty bike back out to them (at my expense) before I can do so?

Sorry for the mountains of questions there, I'm just trying to understand what rights I have. The bike was not cheap, and I'm getting increasingly worried that my 30 days is going to run out and I'll be stuck with an expensive bike I can't use.

Thank you for your time

You'll have to see what the consumer rights are for the Netherlands. If you initiate a chargeback, you would be expected to return the bike at your own expense.

Manxman_in_exile

@ghostlyc -  you've only mentioned chargeback, is a s75 claim ruled out? 

s75 doesn't apply either to debit card purchases or to payment by bank transfer, but does apply to overseas purchases - even if overseas consumer law differs from UK consumer law.  (Or at least that is what I've understood @born_again to say previously about s75 claims).

Also I think that if you win a s75 claim the bike becomes your card issuer's property, so it's probably not your problem getting it back to the NL

born_again

Manxman_in_exile said:

@ghostlyc -  you've only mentioned chargeback, is a s75 claim ruled out? 

s75 doesn't apply either to debit card purchases or to payment by bank transfer, but does apply to overseas purchases - even if overseas consumer law differs from UK consumer law.  (Or at least that is what I've understood @born_again to say previously about s75 claims).

Also I think that if you win a s75 claim the bike becomes your card issuer's property, so it's probably not your problem getting it back to the NL

S75 would be OK subject to a CC being used, where purchased from makes no difference. OP not made any mention of payment method though.

Chargeback would require item to be returned at own expense (can't claim it back, only amount debited card) unless you could get something from co saying will not take it back.

I know you do not have to. But have you tried contacting the manufacture with the issue?

ghostlyc

powerful_Rogue said:

ghostlyc said:

Hi there,

In early May I bought an e-bike from an online store in the Netherlands (I'm in the UK). It took them a month to ship it to me and when it arrived, the motor was damaged (without going into the details too much, it would be dangerous to ride).

I reached out to the store about two weeks ago to ask about a replacement or refund and they told me that they would speak to the manufacturer of the bike to get a replacement. I've been waiting to hear back now for two weeks, but I've not heard anything.

Am I within my rights to request a full refund, since I'm still within 30 days of receiving the bike? Even though they are seemingly (but not effectively) trying to replace the bike? And do these rights still apply with the bike being sold from overseas?

The retailer's customer service is pretty bad, and I'm pretty sure they will be difficult if I do request a refund, so if they do try to fob me off, is this the kind of thing where I should be trying to make a Visa chargeback with my bank? And if so, do I need to ship the faulty bike back out to them (at my expense) before I can do so?

Sorry for the mountains of questions there, I'm just trying to understand what rights I have. The bike was not cheap, and I'm getting increasingly worried that my 30 days is going to run out and I'll be stuck with an expensive bike I can't use.

Thank you for your time

You'll have to see what the consumer rights are for the Netherlands. If you initiate a chargeback, you would be expected to return the bike at your own expense.

Sorry, I completely forgot to mention it in the original post, but I'm in the UK. So I believe I'm covered by UK consumer law, is that correct?

Manxman_in_exile said:

@ghostlyc -  you've only mentioned chargeback, is a s75 claim ruled out? 

s75 doesn't apply either to debit card purchases or to payment by bank transfer, but does apply to overseas purchases - even if overseas consumer law differs from UK consumer law.  (Or at least that is what I've understood @born_again to say previously about s75 claims).

Also I think that if you win a s75 claim the bike becomes your card issuer's property, so it's probably not your problem getting it back to the NL

Unfortunately, I bought the bike on my debit card (lesson learned on that one), so I don't believe S75 applies, which is a bummer.

born_again said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

@ghostlyc -  you've only mentioned chargeback, is a s75 claim ruled out? 

s75 doesn't apply either to debit card purchases or to payment by bank transfer, but does apply to overseas purchases - even if overseas consumer law differs from UK consumer law.  (Or at least that is what I've understood @born_again to say previously about s75 claims).

Also I think that if you win a s75 claim the bike becomes your card issuer's property, so it's probably not your problem getting it back to the NL

S75 would be OK subject to a CC being used, where purchased from makes no difference. OP not made any mention of payment method though.

Chargeback would require item to be returned at own expense (can't claim it back, only amount debited card) unless you could get something from co saying will not take it back.

I know you do not have to. But have you tried contacting the manufacture with the issue?

If the company declines to give me a refund (assuming it's my legal right to have one), should I send the bike back before issuing the chargeback? Or after it is complete?
I'm just concerned that if I send the bike back and issue the chargeback, but it gets rejected for some reason or another, I no longer have the bike or the money I paid for it.

Thank you for your answers everyone, I appreciate it.

Manxman_in_exile

No.  If you bought it online from the NL it's almost certain that it'll be covered by Dutch law, not UK.  Probably very similar - but most people here won't know.

If you go to the T&Cs on their website it'll probably say what country's law the contract is subject to.

Credit card pretty much always gives more protection than any other payment method.

As regards whether you return the bike pre- or post-chargeback, ask your card issuer what to do.

(Personally I'd try the retailer again.  I'd have thought you'd be more likely to get some sort of satisfactory result direct from them rather than pfaffing about with an attempted chargeback on an overseas purchase.  Go chargeback as a last resort... )

ghostlyc

Manxman_in_exile said:

No.  If you bought it online from the NL it's almost certain that it'll be covered by Dutch law, not UK.  Probably very similar - but most people here won't know.

If you go to the T&Cs on their website it'll probably say what country's law the contract is subject to.

Credit card pretty much always gives more protection than any other payment method.

As regards whether you return the bike pre- or post-chargeback, ask your card issuer what to do.

(Personally I'd try the retailer again.  I'd have thought you'd be more likely to get some sort of satisfactory result direct from them rather than pfaffing about with an attempted chargeback on an overseas purchase.  Go chargeback as a last resort... )

Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate it.

Are you certain that the Consumer Rights Act doesn't apply here? I found this page on the UK International Consumer Center that seems to imply that it does. Namely:

Directive 1999/44/EC on the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees, commonly referred to as the Consumer Sales Directive, establishes a minimum level of protection for consumers purchasing goods across the EU.

All countries in the European Union, plus Iceland and Norway are required to implement this into their domestic law.
This is implemented into UK law by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which makes the directive applicable in the UK. The Consumer Rights Act also provides further rights and protections for consumers in the UK. This means that we can still benefit from these rights now that the UK has left the European Union and the transitition period has ended.

Note: The Consumer Rights Act applies from the 1st October 2015. This guide focuses on your rights for goods purchased AFTER 1 Oct 2015. For any transactions before this, the previous law will apply.

However, I just found this on the retailer's T&Cs:

The Services are controlled and offered by Fatdaddy from its facilities in The Netherlands. Fatdaddy makes no representations that the Services are appropriate or available for use in other locations. Those who access or use the Services from other countries do so at their own volition and are responsible for compliance with local law.

That paragraph seems to suggest that I'm subject to Dutch consumer rights laws, but it's at odds with the International Consumer Center advice, so I'm very confused.

I have reached out to the retailer to request the refund, but their previous interactions have indicated that they are prepared to be difficult on this matter, so I just wanted to be sure of my rights before they come back to me.

screech_78

Consumer Rights Act only applies to purchases made in the UK. You are bound by whatever laws are applicable in the country you purchased from. As a UK forum, it’s unlikely many people will be familiar with what applies in the Netherlands. 

ghostlyc

screech_78 said:

Consumer Rights Act only applies to purchases made in the UK. You are bound by whatever laws are applicable in the country you purchased from. As a UK forum, it’s unlikely many people will be familiar with what applies in the Netherlands. 

Oh I'm sorry, I totally neglected to include this in my post, but I'm from and located in the UK. So, to confirm, even though the bike came from the Netherlands, being in the UK means that I am covered by the CRA?

ghostlyc

Ah wait, sorry, I think I misread your message. When you say "made in the UK", you're referring to purchases from a UK based entity?

Manxman_in_exile

I don't think the first bit you quoted means what you think it means.

It is saying that the relevant EU Directive giving consumers certain legal protections is implemented into UK law by the Consumer Rights Act 2015.  (Basically what it's saying is that Brexit hasn't affected UK consumer rights).

It doesn't say which equivalent bit of legislation (or whatever) implements the same EU Directive into Dutch law.

Because you have bought online from a Dutch retailer (and their website is presumably hosted in the NL) then it is almost 100% certain that your purchase is governed by Dutch law and not UK law.

In whichever way the EU Directive has been incorporated into Dutch law, it's probably very similar or identical to UK law because it's basically implementing the same protections.  But if it's Dutch law, it's enforceable by courts in the NL, not by courts in the UK.  That is the problem you have if you can't get a refund from the retailer and a chargeback fails - or is sucessfully challenged by the retailer.  You have no legally enforceable rights in the UK.

I don't think the second bit you quote is relevant either.  You are looking for a term that says something like "any disputes in relation to this contract shall be governed according to Dutch law (or whatever)".  What you've quoted is about purchasers being responsible for ensuring bikes they've bought are legal in the country they'll be used in.