Keyless car security Kia Niro

Mr.Generous

Deleted_User said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

I don’t think I would buy a car that had keyless entry unless it could be disabled. I’ve no problem with the push button start without keyless entry (it’s what I have at the moment) as without unlocking the car, they won’t be able to start it but keyless entry really seems like a stupid idea.

it’s pretty much the equivalent of leaving your car unlocked and the keys inside, particularly if you are nearby (such as at your house).

It's not remotely equivalent to that. To flip it around, with a normal key / remote sensor, if you forgot to lock it then the thief stole it the same as you leaving the key inside. At least with keyless when I walk away, the car automatically locks without touching the button

Yet somehow there is a spike of thefts of keyless start vehicles.

I remember reading on a forum about a guy and his wife who shared a car, she drove but had left her keys at home, she dropped him at the pub. she stopped at a red light a couple of miles down the road, stop n' start kicked in, then it wouldn't restart as no key present. He took ages to answer his phone and get over there with his key, but oviously - and all men will agree with this one - it was HIS FAULT!!

If that can't happen with keyless please explain why, if it can happen why isn't it more common!!

[Deleted User]

Mr.Generous said:

Deleted_User said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

I don’t think I would buy a car that had keyless entry unless it could be disabled. I’ve no problem with the push button start without keyless entry (it’s what I have at the moment) as without unlocking the car, they won’t be able to start it but keyless entry really seems like a stupid idea.

it’s pretty much the equivalent of leaving your car unlocked and the keys inside, particularly if you are nearby (such as at your house).

It's not remotely equivalent to that. To flip it around, with a normal key / remote sensor, if you forgot to lock it then the thief stole it the same as you leaving the key inside. At least with keyless when I walk away, the car automatically locks without touching the button

Yet somehow there is a spike of thefts of keyless start vehicles.

I remember reading on a forum about a guy and his wife who shared a car, she drove but had left her keys at home, she dropped him at the pub. she stopped at a red light a couple of miles down the road, stop n' start kicked in, then it wouldn't restart as no key present. He took ages to answer his phone and get over there with his key, but oviously - and all men will agree with this one - it was HIS FAULT!!

If that can't happen with keyless please explain why, if it can happen why isn't it more common!!

All depends on how you interpret headlines related to statistics.

Car thefts are significantly lower than they were 20 years ago, just a third of what they were in 2002 for example, so it has probably got more difficult to steal a car over that time period or policing and sentencing is better.

I don't know what your source of the "spike of thefts of keyless start vehicles" is but I reckon if you look at the underlying statistics you will find among the most stolen cars are either the most popular cars (Fiesta / Golf /Astra) or prestige models which are typically keyless (Range Rover / E-Class / BMW 5 series) - and therefore most thefts are now from keyless cars but generally thefts are still down over time. 

Car theft will always occur, but I do prefer the keyless thefts as daft as that may sound. For most of motoring history, car theft was generally mechanical and involved defeating locking mechanism and/or hotwiring which caused damage to the car.

As cars got better locks and sophisticated immobilisers, theft started to change to the point that the thief would need to obtain the keys, usually by breaking into a house or violence towards the owner which isn't better in my eyes.

Now the keyless theft means that there is less need to break into a house or be violent towards the owner, which I prefer and so do the criminals. If keyless cars become 'unhackable' then the trend will revert back to home entry or violence towards the owner which isn't good.

As for the example of the guy and his wife, not sure what car it was but my keyless car has an audible and a prominent visual warning on the dashboard if the key is removed from the car while it is running to prevent that happening so I doubt it happens that often.

Goldenyears

I use Faraday pouches for my (not keyless) BMW 3-Series.  When key is secured in the pouch and start button pressed, the car responds "Security failed".  So if the signal leaks, but not enough to start' is it possible for a thief to start the car with their device when the leaked signal is at least 1000X  lower with key 10 metres away? 

400ixl

Keyless entry security is improving all the time (there were some real early blunders unfortunately for those who own them).

Most systems now will disable any active signal responses when the key has not moved (they have inbuilt sensors in the fob) for a certain amount of time, say 30 seconds. This means that when you put your key down at home, a thief can still boost the signal from the car to get a response from the fob, but the fob will not respond. This was the most common of the man in the middle attacks that were happening.

I saw one mention of capturing a signal in a car park, then tracking the car and using that captured signal later to steal the car. that will not work in 99% of cases as the signal interchange runs on a rotating encryption so it has to be live, hence the man in the middle attack with real time signal boosters.

Also, the story of the person who drove off after dropping someone with the key. Whilst that is certainly something that can happen as if the car is started it does not stop running if the key is no longer present (as that could be dangerous if the fob failed whilst driving at speed), it doesn't restart if the engine stops. However, pretty much all cars have audible and visual messages that nag the instance the fob is not detected. So the driver was either ignoring these warnings or had one of the very rare cars without it.

As people have also found out you really need to test faraday pouches on a regular basis (weekly even) as they are known to fail and let the signal leak at any point in time. So if you are using one then keep checking it to ensure it is still working.

Some vehicles had the ability to disable keyless from the start via the fob, others introduced it later, so maybe worth checking it there is an update. It was usually a simple procedure like double pressing lock disabled it until the next time you pressed unlock. This allowed people to easily disable it if the keys were going to be near enough to keep it unlocked or close enough to be man in the middle attacked.

It also has to be considered that some thefts are not actually man in the middle keyless thefts. Some manufacturers had / have vulnerabilities that allow thieves to replace fobs associated with the car remotely or via the ODB ports. This meant that the original key is not needed.

It doesn't make for good reading, but things are getting better and more secure, and there are things you can do to either disable or enhance the security. Even if it feels very 1980's with physical steering wheel locks etc.

If you think back to the 80's with the likes of Ford, before the round locks were introduced, there were actually only 4 different door lock barrels for all of the flat key models. So you have a 1 in 4 chance of unlocking any other Ford with your key. Granted the barrels for the ignition were more accurate and the chances of starting the car were much lower.

Overall security is much better, but you need to understand the system of your car, if any weaknesses exist and if so how to counteract them should you wish.

chrisw

Jenni_D said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

I don’t think I would buy a car that had keyless entry unless it could be disabled. I’ve no problem with the push button start without keyless entry (it’s what I have at the moment) as without unlocking the car, they won’t be able to start it but keyless entry really seems like a stupid idea.

I remember driving a Passat several years ago that had a push button start. However it also required the key fob to be pushed into a receptacle on the dash - so there was both a wireless and a mechanical interface to allow the car to start.

My last few cars have had a slot in the dash to insert the fob, but my new one is keyless start. It seems completely pointless to me as there's nowhere to put the keys when you get in. I usually end up throwing them into the cup holder or onto the passenger seat where they inevitably slide off and go under the seat.

born_again

chrisw said:

My last few cars have had a slot in the dash to insert the fob, but my new one is keyless start. It seems completely pointless to me as there's nowhere to put the keys when you get in. I usually end up throwing them into the cup holder or onto the passenger seat where they inevitably slide off and go under the seat.

Leave them in your pocket.
My keys only come out of my pocket when trousers are changed.

ontheroad1970

born_again said:

chrisw said:

My last few cars have had a slot in the dash to insert the fob, but my new one is keyless start. It seems completely pointless to me as there's nowhere to put the keys when you get in. I usually end up throwing them into the cup holder or onto the passenger seat where they inevitably slide off and go under the seat.

Leave them in your pocket.
My keys only come out of my pocket when trousers are changed.

This.  Mine are on a carabinier type key holder that are on a belt loop or on the built in clip on some trousers made by Rohan

Money_Grabber13579

born_again said:

chrisw said:

My last few cars have had a slot in the dash to insert the fob, but my new one is keyless start. It seems completely pointless to me as there's nowhere to put the keys when you get in. I usually end up throwing them into the cup holder or onto the passenger seat where they inevitably slide off and go under the seat.

Leave them in your pocket.
My keys only come out of my pocket when trousers are changed.

I used to do that. Until I was driving down the road and the boot opened. So they get dumped in a cup holder now.

Money_Grabber13579

Deleted_User said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

I don’t think I would buy a car that had keyless entry unless it could be disabled. I’ve no problem with the push button start without keyless entry (it’s what I have at the moment) as without unlocking the car, they won’t be able to start it but keyless entry really seems like a stupid idea.

it’s pretty much the equivalent of leaving your car unlocked and the keys inside, particularly if you are nearby (such as at your house).

It's not remotely equivalent to that. To flip it around, with a normal key / remote sensor, if you forgot to lock it then the thief stole it the same as you leaving the key inside. At least with keyless when I walk away, the car automatically locks without touching the button

It’s exactly like that. With keyed entry, a thief can steal your car if you leave your keys in the car and the car unlocked. With keyless entry, a thief can pretend you’ve left your keys in your car and the car unlocked and steal your car (granted, only if you’re within a range where the signal can be amplified, but given that cars spend the majority of their time at their owners homes, this will be most if the time).

Jenni_D

Money_Grabber13579 said:

Deleted_User said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

I don’t think I would buy a car that had keyless entry unless it could be disabled. I’ve no problem with the push button start without keyless entry (it’s what I have at the moment) as without unlocking the car, they won’t be able to start it but keyless entry really seems like a stupid idea.

it’s pretty much the equivalent of leaving your car unlocked and the keys inside, particularly if you are nearby (such as at your house).

It's not remotely equivalent to that. To flip it around, with a normal key / remote sensor, if you forgot to lock it then the thief stole it the same as you leaving the key inside. At least with keyless when I walk away, the car automatically locks without touching the button

It’s exactly like that. With keyed entry, a thief can steal your car if you leave your keys in the car and the car unlocked. With keyless entry, a thief can pretend you’ve left your keys in your car and the car unlocked and steal your car (granted, only if you’re within a range where the signal can be amplified, but given that cars spend the majority of their time at their owners homes, this will be most if the time).

But if you have all keys registered to the vehicle in your possession then the insurance company can't reject your claim of the car is stolen via a MitM attack.