Money Moral Dilemma: Should I give my brother a better power tool after I broke his?

Ringo90

Section62 said:

That's your personal choice.  You can't impose that on the OP's brother, nor can the OP. 

Indeed it is! You know, usually when I want to upgrade a personal possession, I purchase it myself, I don't take advantage of my friends and family, even if they borrowed and accidentally destroyed my possession. If they get me a new-for-old of the same thing or similar item of equivalent value... or even just the money I paid, I'm more than happy and that's the most I would expect them to do, surely I wouldn't expect them paying more than what I paid myself originally.
But then of course, everyone can do what they please!

Even the OP agrees the mimumum amount should be the replacement cost, not the value.

Where in the post do you read minimum? I think that's the key. The OP seems to think the replacement cost is the maximum they can give (and as I explained above, I agree with him) otherwise he would give him the more expensive one and this post wouldn't exist

Section62

Ringo90 said:

...surely I wouldn't expect them paying more than what I paid myself originally...

We don't know what the OP's brother paid originally, nor how the current price compares to what the brother paid.  If the cost of an identical tool has increased by ('say') 10% are you saying the brother should cover the inflation 'gap' themselves, even if that means they are just back to where they were regarding the condition/specification of the tool?

I don't think it helps to characterise the brother's position of not wanting to suffer a loss as them wanting to "take advantage".  Maybe that isn't what you meant, but it sounds that way to me.

Ringo90 said:

Even the OP agrees the mimumum amount should be the replacement cost, not the value.

Where in the post do you read minimum? I think that's the key. The OP seems to think the replacement cost is the maximum they can give (and as I explained above, I agree with him) otherwise he would give him the more expensive one and this post wouldn't exist

I read "I'll buy him the original tool when it's available, or give him the cash equivalent," as the amount it will cost to replace the tool, not the amount the tool is worth second-hand and with wear and tear.

Nowhere does the OP mention making a deduction for condition or age.

Therefore the OP agrees the minimum amount is the replacement cost. It could also be the maximum they are willing to pay.

You said you "...would ask you to just contribute a sum equivalent to the value of my old iPhone X..." - the value of an old iPhone X (or used power tool) will almost always be less than the cost of buying one, particularly if the new owner is seeking one which hasn't been abused or damaged.  Thus you were introducing an additional (potentially much lower) figure which wasn't what the OP was proposing.

spyros_455

I actually have a different opinion than most of these posts.

If you were using the drill as intended, then you didn't really break it. Instead, it broke because it was defective or due to wearing out over time. If that's the case, it seems very unfair that you'd pay for a brand new and better drill. Imagine the scenario where your brother has used the drill consistently for 10 years. You've only used it one or two times. Then, by coincidence, the time it ended up breaking was when you used it but it would have broken next time your brother used it anyway.

So I think you should also consider whether you were using it improperly. In other words, whether it's truly your fault that it broke. Also consider how often you use it. In other words, whether all the wear and tear from it was your fault. Then add a little bit of overhead to that due to you obtaining a service from your brother in the form of "renting" a power drill.

Now, explaining all that isn't easy and your brother may disagree. It's probably best to have your own drill.

Re-buying your brother the same drill or giving him the money equivalent is more than good enough. It probably benefits your brother much more based on what I said above. He's effectively getting the same tool with no wear and tear.

silvercar

When you borrow something, you do so with the intention to return in the same condition in a timely manner - otherwise it wouldn’t have been lent to you in the first place. You ask to borrow, not to take, use, break and bin.

When you borrow an older item it’s the risk you take, unless the lender says it’s an item on its last legs.

So I think you have a duty to replace. If all you can get is a better model then that’s what you need to do.

Otherwise no one would lend anything ever.

Ringo90

spyros_455 said:

I actually have a different opinion than most of these posts.

If you were using the drill as intended, then you didn't really break it. Instead, it broke because it was defective or due to wearing out over time. If that's the case, it seems very unfair that you'd pay for a brand new and better drill. Imagine the scenario where your brother has used the drill consistently for 10 years. You've only used it one or two times. Then, by coincidence, the time it ended up breaking was when you used it but it would have broken next time your brother used it anyway.

So I think you should also consider whether you were using it improperly. In other words, whether it's truly your fault that it broke. Also consider how often you use it. In other words, whether all the wear and tear from it was your fault. Then add a little bit of overhead to that due to you obtaining a service from your brother in the form of "renting" a power drill.

Now, explaining all that isn't easy and your brother may disagree. It's probably best to have your own drill.

Re-buying your brother the same drill or giving him the money equivalent is more than good enough. It probably benefits your brother much more based on what I said above. He's effectively getting the same tool with no wear and tear.

Exactly my point, thank you.
Most people here are focusing on the simple idea that the guy had a drill and now he hasn't so apparently he deserves not only a drill but also some sort of compensation because not even getting the same drill is good enough for him! It's not as simple as that!
So what now? My sister damages irreparably a £15 Primark pair of shoes I lend her, probably because they were already partly torn by me walking many miles on them, she looks in every Primark for a replacement, ultimately she offers me the £15 money, and I tell her "No thanks give me a £60 pair Nike shoes instead!"

Section62

Ringo90 said:

spyros_455 said:

Exactly my point, thank you.
Most people here are focusing on the simple idea that the guy had a drill and now he hasn't so apparently he deserves not only a drill but also some sort of compensation because not even getting the same drill is good enough for him! It's not as simple as that!

It is simple.  The brother had a 'power tool' ("drill" wasn't mentioned).  The OP borrowed it and broke it.  The brother deserves to be put back in the position he was in before of having a working power tool.  Replacing the tool is complicated because the same model is not currently available (for unstated reasons).  Therefore to replace the broken tool within a reasonable timeframe requires an upgrade.

"Compensation" is a word which triggers some people.  At its simplest 'compensation' is simply returning a person or thing back to the state it was in at the start.  It is a case of extrapolation and interpretation to say

"...but also some sort of compensation because not even getting the same drill is good enough for him!"

Ringo90 said:

So what now? My sister damages irreparably a £15 Primark pair of shoes I lend her, probably because they were already partly torn by me walking many miles on them, she looks in every Primark for a replacement, ultimately she offers me the £15 money, and I tell her "No thanks give me a £60 pair Nike shoes instead!"

Not really comparable.

To make your example comparable then your sister would tell you she's damaged your shoes and adds "by the way I got this really cool pair of £60 Nikes for myself. But let me know when you've replaced your Primarks (Soz, I looked everywhere but couldn't find any) and I'll give you the £15".

silvercar

So what now? My sister damages irreparably a £15 Primark pair of shoes I lend her, probably because they were already partly torn by me walking many miles on them, she looks in every Primark for a replacement, ultimately she offers me the £15 money, and I tell her "No thanks give me a £60 pair Nike shoes instead!"

To make your example comparable then your sister would tell you she's damaged your shoes and adds "by the way I got this really cool pair of £60 Nikes for myself. But let me know when you've replaced your Primarks (Soz, I looked everywhere but couldn't find any) and I'll give you the £15".

Sister looks at your primark shoes and comments that they are about to fall apart. You say its fine if they break as they were on their last legs (!) anyway. If they do break you aren't under any obligation as you've agreed before hand that they were falling apart. Or, shoes break and sister takes you to primark and suggests you choose some new shoes. 

It isn't really comparable as primark shoes are always going to have a limited life, whereas a drill should last decades.

Ringo90

Section62 said:

To make your example comparable then your sister would tell you she's damaged your shoes and adds "by the way I got this really cool pair of £60 Nikes for myself. But let me know when you've replaced your Primarks (Soz, I looked everywhere but couldn't find any) and I'll give you the £15".

Yeah, so what? I chose to buy the Primark shoes in the first place, didn't I? Not her. And maybe because she destroyed the Primark pair so easily, she realised they aren't really for her, and decided she wants the Nikes instead. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. What pair of shoes she gets for herself it's not my business even if once I lent her one, as long as she gives me a pair of shoes of equivalent quality to the ones I lent her.
Then if I'm like, "You know sis, you're right, Primark shoes are not worth it, can I have the 15 bucks instead and I'm gonna use them towards a pair of Nikes?" that's absolutely fine. But it's not up to her to get me a pair of Nikes unless she wants to gift me.

silvercar said:

Or, shoes break and sister takes you to primark and suggests you choose some new shoes. 

It isn't really comparable as primark shoes are always going to have a limited life, whereas a drill should last decades.

Yes, exactly, sister takes me to Primark to choose a new pair, not to the Nike store (unless she wants to take this chance to give me a birthday present?).
We don't know if it's a drill, we don't know how old it was, we don't know about the quality. All we know is it broke so yeah, even something that lasts for decades can break, and we can safely say it was broken accidentally, not intentionally so yeah, that's enough for me to say: like for like replacement, asking for anything more is greedy.

gloriouslyhappy

My tuppence-worth a bit late to the party - you owe him a suitable replacement at whatever it costs you. 
 
I borrowed a van from a friend to move some things. The van had been in his garage for three months while he was working on contract abroad and had a full tank. After I used the van I filled up the tank again. The price of petrol has shot up dramatically since he last filled the tank and it cost me a lot more than it would have cost him. Should I therefore have only part filled it? Of course not! 

littleteapot

It ceases to amaze me how petty people can be.

I do buy all the smaller power tools myself, but for larger items (e.g. a concrete breaker) it is not economically viable to buy my own, so I borrow them from a friend on the understanding that it is working properly at the time of loan, and if it breaks whilst in my care I have the option of repairing it (properly) or buying him a replacement of equal or better condition/spec.

He had the goodwill to let me borrow it and entrust it to my care, so therefore I have to the goodwill to fully compensate him for the loss in the event it breaks (regardless of whether it was due to misuse or age related). Overall the cost of replacing one (albeit perhaps costly) tool is still far cheaper for me in the long run than buying them all myself or paying a tradesman to do the work.

Likewise if he borrows something from me, I know he would do the same. I only lend expensive tools to people who either agree to the same terms or I am confident would act fairly in the event of a fault.

I don't have many friends, and very little family remaining either. Power tools can be repaired/replaced. Relationships rarely can. People need to stop being so materialistic and thinking they can freeride all the time.