Casual Work - Neighbour's Son

Grumpy_chap

I'm not sure where this thread should sit as it could be in many forums, so hopefully this is as good as any.

My neighbour's son was pestering me for some work and I have always refused on the basis of not encouraging child labour and I wondered whether it was a risk of creating an "awkward" situation.  He has washed my other neighbour's car on the odd occasion in the past for some extra pocket money.

He is a good lad with a strong work ethic, but also a bit of a tear-away at times.  His "little bundle of joy" was born at Christmas, so he has more need for income than previously.  He is now turning 16 and will be finishing school.  He starts his apprenticeship (training to be an electrician) in September so has the long summer break to while away.

He knocked today and I agreed that he could pressure-wash our driveway on the proviso that I would not let him do that until he had finished his last GCSE exam - which will be next Thursday week. 
The thing is, he has taken this as rather a "pocket money" approach so when I suggested he worked out a price, the response was "well, I'll just do it and you can pay me what you think its worth".  
So, I have no idea what this type of task is worth.  It is a job I'd always do myself (or just not do).  I want to be fair and not underpay just because of his age.  I'd be quite happy to get him to do some weeding and such like in the garden so, if we had some kind of rate that was fair, I could ask him to other tasks as well.

How do I assess what the pay should be?
Should cleaning the driveway be a different rate than weeding?  Or are all tasks that really amount to unskilled labour pretty much equal?

As a starting point, I'm inclined to offer £15 per hour, so £150 day and he needs to work solidly for that rate.  That's bringing him to proper "adulting" and I feel fine in then saying he needs to be taking care of his own tax and such like.

But, I'm really clueless...

FreeBear

Grumpy_chap said: As a starting point, I'm inclined to offer £15 per hour, so £150 day and he needs to work solidly for that rate.  That's bringing him to proper "adulting" and I feel fine in then saying he needs to be taking care of his own tax and such like.

National minimum wage for under 18 - £4.81 p/h

For unskilled labour, I'd not be paying much more than that to be honest.. I had a little helper last year when I was laying a block paved driveway. Paid £50-70 per day (was only about 6 hours of work) for someone to fetch the blocks a few at a time.

Grumpy_chap

I hadn't thought about a lower rate than NMW (or lower NMW for young people).  I was just thinking from NMW £9.50 and Living Wage £11.05.

I'm also not looking for 'a little helper'.  He needs to pretty much just get on with the job and get it done while I am at work (WFH so available to answer queries).

FaceHead

Agree that the NMW/Living wage of 9.50-11.05 is the right range. It's unskilled, minimum wage work, but I recall being a 16 year old and the grownup minimum wage looked tasty. An argument to go up a little from there if they have their own tools/use any consumables.

You should pay for how long it should take for a job as good as the one you get: Not how long it does take. 

TELLIT01

Pressure washing a driveway shouldn't take more than a couple of hours at most.  I'd probably go with £10 per hour.  Bear in mind that pressure washing a block drive can create its own problems as it's easy to blast the sand away from the joints and then have to re-sand.  It's good that he's trying to earn some extra money.  Just a shame he didn't earn some 18 months ago and buy a book on contraception, assuming by 'bundle of joy' you mean baby.

grandadgolfer

Tell him you've changed your mind and it doesn't need doing or your doing it yourself.......it'll save you a load of hassle

rob7475

I think offering to pay a 16 year old £150 per day for unskilled work is ridiculous. Bear in mind he won't be paying any tax or insurance on that income, it's equivalent to a full time worker earning around £230 per day. 

It's overly generous and if you pay him that much he's going to be round all the time wanting to do odd jobs for you. I think £5 per hour cash in hand is more than enough for a school age child to be earning.

silvercar

I'd be careful, lots to go wrong. Anyone inexperienced at jet washing will end up spraying the muck from your driveway all over the walls and windows of your house!

liberty_lily

rob7475 said:

I think offering to pay a 16 year old £150 per day for unskilled work is ridiculous. Bear in mind he won't be paying any tax or insurance on that income, it's equivalent to a full time worker earning around £230 per day. 

It's overly generous and if you pay him that much he's going to be round all the time wanting to do odd jobs for you. I think £5 per hour cash in hand is more than enough for a school age child to be earning.

This ^^^

A (sixty-something) person we know who is a highly skilled stone mason with 40+ years of experience struggles to earn more than £90 per day here in rural SW Wales. 

DH often employs a labourer of a similar age to the young person referred to by the OP, and - having discussed his expectations ahead of starting - he's happy to earn £60 per day. He's at agricultural college and the bit of income is sufficient to take his GF out etc.

£150 per day is way too much and crazy, imho!

Grumpy_chap

TELLIT01 said:

Just a shame he didn't earn some 18 months ago and buy a book on contraception, assuming by 'bundle of joy' you mean baby.

Yes, 'bundle of joy' = 'baby'
You may well be correct about what would have been better 18-months ago.

He is now learning to "adult" very quickly and, to give him his credit, is supporting the mother and the child which many young lads won't do and actually involved and looking after the child. 

He is trying his best, not just earning some pocket money and enough to take his GF out and I'd certainly say moved on from being just a "school age child".  He was always keen to do "odd jobs" ever since he was around 12 yo and I always steered clear. though that would have been pocket money stuff.

He is getting ready for an Apprenticeship starting after the summer and trying to make a sensible earning over the three months (forced by fatherhood) whereas his mates will quite likely all just spend the post-GCSE summer doing whatever time-wasting they do.  He's been out and equipped himself with a pressure washer and full waterproofs etc. 

I spoke with him about not spraying dirt up the house / windows (which I have seen proper adults mess up) and also the need to re-sand it all afterwards.  He also mentioned lifting the drain gullies and cleaning them at end of job.  Thank you to those that highlighted these points.

He is quite practically minded (made a fantastic swing-cot for his baby from pallets) and I think he'll do a good job of cleaning the driveway.  He has the promise that if he does a good job, then I'll get him to do the patio as well and possibly Mum's driveway which needs doing.  Sometimes it is time to give the next generation their first opportunity - let's be fair, there are many adults who would just bemoan his generation for being layabouts.

Anyway, it seems as though my initial suggestion £15 per hour was a tad high, but looking at the comments made:

FreeBear said:

Paid £50-70 per day (was only about 6 hours of work) 

 = £8.30 - £11.66 per hour

FaceHead said:

Agree that the NMW/Living wage of 9.50-11.05 is the right range. 
An argument to go up a little from there if they have their own tools/use any consumables.

TELLIT01 said:

I'd probably go with £10 per hour.  

rob7475 said:

I think £5 per hour cash in hand is more than enough for a school age child to be earning.

liberty_lily said:

a labourer of a similar age to the young person referred to by the OP, and - having discussed his expectations ahead of starting - he's happy to earn £60 per day. 

= £6 to £7.50 per hour in rural SW wales (not London where we are)


The consensus, therefore, seems to be something in the range £10 - £12 per hour.  I'll offer something in that band.

I did ask another young person (22 yo) I know what they thought was fair and the answer they gave was £15 per hour, which was odd that they came up with my first thought on the subject.

I think I'd feel that it was taking advantage and being opportunistic to offer the "pocket money" £5 per hour and paying at a fair rate means I can be more firm when it comes to ensuring quality (cleaning down the house if he makes a mess / re-sanding properly etc) and also the life-lesson associated with:

FaceHead said:

You should pay for how long it should take for a job as good as the one you get: Not how long it does take. 

I think I might also offer him some guidance as to how to "price" a job as there are many people that prefer a price than hourly rate (including myself).  I'll even let him do some before / after photos and print him some flyers if he feels that will help.

I do set this against someone who quoted to do my Mum's driveway for £710 - joke!  There was also a person advertising on a local FB group to do "any driveway any size" for £80 which I laughed at as too cheap and not realistic as my driveway is 3 x the size of my neighbour's driveway so they can't both be the same price.

Sandtree

Grumpy_chap said:

The thing is, he has taken this as rather a "pocket money" approach so when I suggested he worked out a price, the response was "well, I'll just do it and you can pay me what you think its worth".  
So, I have no idea what this type of task is worth.  It is a job I'd always do myself (or just not do).  I want to be fair and not underpay just because of his age.  I'd be quite happy to get him to do some weeding and such like in the garden so, if we had some kind of rate that was fair, I could ask him to other tasks as well.

How do I assess what the pay should be?
Should cleaning the driveway be a different rate than weeding?  Or are all tasks that really amount to unskilled labour pretty much equal?

There is actually a whole series of businesses that operate a "pay what you think its worth"... whilst it does result in a fairly wide spread of prices being paid on the whole most evidence suggests the average is slightly above the average price charged for those with fixed pricing. 

Unskilled tasks are generally equal but it does depend on who is providing the equipment and any consumables... if its their pressure washer, their detergent etc then its likely to be a higher rate given the cost of those -v- a trowel for weeding that's likely to last a lot longer than a pressure washer and be cheaper to replace once its worn out.