direct debits going out early but dated correctly grrr!!

Mikeyorks

dunstonh wrote: »

BACS doesnt have anything to do with Christmas post and isnt held up at Christmas with the exception of bank holidays..

Yes .... I read that and smiled .... thinking of Royal Mail wondering whether to add it to the pile of discs lost by HMRC (and I do realise the discs were allegedly care of TNT - but that spoils the thought)

dunstonh wrote:

I do wonder if the changes to the clearing cycle is causing the banks to start making changes that puts them out of sync with each other on certain things (like Sat, Sun, Mon being one day) until the final changes to the clearing cycle are in place.

Don't know what the catalyst is .. but it's been on the move for some time .. and they're certainly out of synch. Time was when you knew - if you were outside the industry - what your Bank(s) did, and only that. But forums like this now point up the differences and anomalies .. and it makes you think. Faster payments were due close to 2 months ago - but then revised to 6 months time .... and I still consider they'll be extraordinarily fortunate if they meet the revise.

Mikeyorks

YorkshireBoy wrote: »

So, in the example I gave in post #9

I think your 'Conclusion' on that was right. Yorkshire process the inputs on the Fri night - but continue to give you the Friday database view throughout the weekend. In essence the same processes as pertained before online was introduced

But, going back, what I still don't quite comprehend is the assertion that salary due not until the Monday - is shown in the available balance as a consequence of the Friday Batch. Therefore it can be spent .. despite not reflecting as an entry on the account until the Monday?

Mikeyorks

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

Why shouldn't a bank be able to process a batch run which includes both a run date and a value date? Doesn't seem particularly complex to me, Mike.

.

It isn't complex, in isolation, Mark. But it is when you align it to online views.

Don't have an issue with incoming DCs. But that creates an anomaly in that mine reduce my account on a Sat morning whereas those Banks that provide a frozen Friday database file view throughout the weekend - the debit is applied the Mon date. No issue with the cash - reserved in any event - but there is a modest interest loss suffered for the more up to date view.

It's the example of the incoming salary (due Mon) I find odd. If a bank such as Halifax were to process that, when available, on the Fri night and bearing in mind they provide an updated database view over the weekend ... then they have to 'hide' the the credit from view (or confusingly show it with the Mon date - which they don't). Which, your meaning I assume, essentially means they have to journalise those credits from the Fri Batch - and run them into the Sun Batch, for viewing the subsequent day. Run date / value date ... don't hide transactions.

As the BACS direct credit file is a separate entity then my assumption is .. they simply put it directly into a Sunday night Batch. That accords with the view I get - standard BACS credits show on a Sat (with that date) - BACS salary payments only ever reflect on a Mon-Fri

dunstonh

But, going back, what I still don't quite comprehend is the assertion that salary due not until the Monday - is shown in the available balance as a consequence of the Friday Batch. Therefore it can be spent .. despite not reflecting as an entry on the account until the Monday?

Thats not a lot different to the other banks though. Lloyds show my monday transactions (including direct credits) on a Saturday (showing Mondays date) and they impact on the available balance.

I think the issue here is that Yorkshire bank seem to cut off the day and move to the next before midnight. So, if you log in after a certain time, you can see what is going through next working day based on what has been processed at that point. That is purely an assumption based on Yorkshireboys comments and it reflects what the other banks do but some hours later and usually past midnight!

Again, this could be in part of a move to real time processing. These things tend to happen in stages and the fact they can show it early doesnt mean they have to apply it early. At least not until the clearing cycle changes are introduced. They could have their system in place and ready to go but are holding it back waiting for the official launch.

Mikeyorks

YorkshireBoy wrote: »

I've just been taking a look around the BACS site and I'm struggling to grasp the fundamental difference between BACS transfers ....

Meant to respond last night - and forgot. BACS payments are essentially single credits (bill payments / transfers etc). The Direct Credits are essentially composites in a designated file format e.g. for salaries - construct as leaving the payer (composite credit record (resulting in a single debit to the payer account) / satellite records to go to individuals accounts / optional records to pay PAYE / NIC totals to HMRC etc)

olly300

dunstonh wrote: »

Again, this could be in part of a move to real time processing. These things tend to happen in stages and the fact they can show it early doesnt mean they have to apply it early. At least not until the clearing cycle changes are introduced. They could have their system in place and ready to go but are holding it back waiting for the official launch.

RBS had this over 4 years ago. My salarly use to go in on say a Monday but I could see it in the balance on in the early hours of Sunday morning. I couldn't draw the money out as it wasn't part of the available balance. I never allowed myself to be in the situation where DD or cheques would bounce after being a student so I don't know what would have happened if a DD or cheque was drawn against it with insufficient funds.

Also DD where reserved the working day before. So my available balance would have the DD deducted from it but my actual balance wouldn't.

When I had the account when I was a student in the mid-90's I wasn't allowed to go over my overdraft limit in shops with my Switch Debit Card so if I had no funds then my card would be declined.

So the fact that it's taken the banking industry years to go to real-time processing is a complete joke.

jenz

This has happened to me this weekend and I was unaware my bank did this. I do online banking and when I checked Saturday I was in credit, but my card bounced on Sunday shopping, when I got home I found that Mondays direct debits had already been taken out.

I am absolutely incensed that banks can do this...........and have read through this thread and am surprised its common practice but surely there must be some law to challenge banks from doing this - why should they be able to access my money before the agreed date.:mad:

dunstonh

I am absolutely incensed that banks can do this...........and have read through this thread and am surprised its common practice but surely there must be some law to challenge banks from doing this - why should they be able to access my money before the agreed date.:mad:

You are required to have money in your account the day before the bills are paid. So, the bank is quite correct in earmarking your account to prevent you going over your overdraft limit.

I found that Mondays direct debits had already been taken out.

No they havent. They are showing on your account as going out Monday. They are not taken early. They are taken on the correct day and the bank has acted correctly. Saturday, Sunday and Monday are treated as the same day.

YorkshireBoy

jenz wrote: »

...when I got home I found that Mondays direct debits had already been taken out.

They hadn't been "taken out". The money had been reserved or earmarked because you couldn't deposit money to cover your outgoing payments before they were to be made. The action by your bank only affected your available balance...NOT your interest earning balance, ie you were still earning interest on the money they had earmarked.

What they were doing was actually saving you money, ie stopping you from going into an unauthorised overdraft situation and incurring 20%+ debit interest/other overdraft fees.

Some banks (HSBC?) allow you to deposit money on the day (in your case Monday) up to 3:30 (and they'll then try to pay your DD's again), but most banks run the DD's in the early hours of the morning.

jamesd

jenz, that situation is part of what pre-arranged overdraft facilities exist to prevent. If you can, arrange an overdraft facility at least large enough to cover all of your monthly bills and the worst you'll have to deal with is whatever the cost is for using your agreed overdraft for a little while. Short term borrowing like this is what overdrafts are perfect for and you can borrow a few thousand for a week for only a few pounds in interest or a few hundred for a few days for pennies.