Boundary issue

mw123

Hello all,

we have lived in our house which we purchased for 7 years now and always got on well with our neighbor who is an retired chap living in a council owned property. We replaced the fence recently after moving in putting new posts back where they were they had been prior to us moving in. There was no issue with the until a few days ago. Some of the posts had become loose so we decided that we would buy 10ft posts and dig 4 ft down. Reason for this is the ground between the two houses is sloped and I don’t think the initial posts were dug see enough. Again I put the posts back where they had come out from. I will mentioned that these posts/fence panels do not follow a straight line as one posts is off by about 3-4inches however as mentioned this has never been a problem and was never mentioned before I told the neighbor that I was going to redo them. Anyway roll on 5 days later I notice string up between the posts and have a mock from the neighbor to come round and take a look. He expresses his displeasure and that he wants it fixing. Obviously after spending the day doing 3 posts I am a little annoyed as he never mentioned before that he wanted anything changed even when he was watching and helping remove the out of line post! My initial reaction was to politely say I am not redoing them which is when he hit the roof marched me off the property, advised me he had a quite to redo it (I very much doubt) and advised me I would be hearing from his solicitor! It’s a council property and we have spoken to them and they are coming out soon to look and speak to us both so I very much doubt he is calling his solicitor.

Anyway going into this a little further I have checked my deeds and these simply show and outline of our boundary not precise measurements. Looking at the ground and slabs these are behind a shed which he has put up there are curb like slap a which almost indicate some sort of boundary and if so we are actually missing around 6 inch of land. Either way it it is all very much a grey area it would seem. I understand things like this can get quite complicated but I wonder if anyone has ever been in a situation like this before or can offer advise as I do not want to particularly dig any posts up especially if the post that is out is actually the one that is in the correct position. I don’t want to reclaim any land I just want to leave everything as it is so I wanted to see if anyone has been in this situation before or has any advice?

Bendy_House

I wouldn't worry.

This is a council-owner property, and they are coming out for a looksee. Good. You should be able to point out that you positioned the new posts exactly where the old ones were - there aren't any signs of 'old' post holes, are there?

Almost certainly the very worst thing that could, just possibly, happen, is that the council says, "Could you move that/these post, please, just to straighten the boundary?" But, as long as you can demonstrate that nothing has actually changed, that's very unlikely.

But it kinda begs the Q - why didn't you discuss this with the neighb during the work, and agree it with him?! He was standing there, wasn't he? "Shall I straighten the fence line while I'm doing this, or just replace it exactly as it was before?"

Yes, the plans on deeds are not to be relied on for precise measurements. When situations like this escalate, then a surveyor specialising in land and borders might need to be called in, but you just don't want to go there... Mind you, a 'hint' of this happening might put the frighteners on the council fellow - they HATE legal disputes. So, if the council fellow is 'bolshie' at all, and is ordering you to do stuff with this fence that you don't consider fair or reasonable (after all, that's how the fence HAS been for a looong time), then you could try a *sigh* - "I guess I'll need to get a surveyor in, then, as I suspect that a good 6-odd inches of your land is actually mine..." (Bear in mind this will be bluff, tho'...)

Bottom line, if you can show the council fellow quite convincing evidence that the new fence is exactly where the old one was, then I doubt very much they'll ask you to do anything about it. You bought your house 7 years ago? Do you have the sales particulars? Does that show pics of the garden? Can you see a slightly wobbly fence line?!

What about Google earth - check that out, see if the fence like wobble can be detected. And then try GE 'history' and go back a bit further.

Anyhoo, almost certainly now't to worry about. I would, tho' start recording any further conversations you have with your neighbour, if he's being belligerent in his manner. You be super-calm and reasonable. Be ready to walk away if he rants.

Section62

Bendy_House said:

...Mind you, a 'hint' of this happening might put the frighteners on the council fellow - they HATE legal disputes. So, if the council fellow is 'bolshie' at all, and is ordering you to do stuff with this fence that you don't consider fair or reasonable (after all, that's how the fence HAS been for a looong time), then you could try a *sigh* - "I guess I'll need to get a surveyor in, then, as I suspect that a good 6-odd inches of your land is actually mine..." (Bear in mind this will be bluff, tho'...)

Bottom line, if you can show the council fellow quite convincing evidence that the new fence is exactly where the old one was, then I doubt very much they'll ask you to do anything about it.

I agree the OP should cut the neighbour out and deal with the council (only).  But what makes you think the BiB?

All the councils I've worked with/for have had no qualms whatsoever about legal disputes... if anything the staff I've worked with have positively enjoyed dealing with them.  The council also doesn't have the problem of selling their property with a neighbour dispute issue to put buyers off, so the risk profile is different.

If the only problem with this part of the fence is one post being in slightly the wrong place making the fenceline kinked then they may ask for it to be moved, or just ignore it.

If the deeds show the line of the boundary to be straight then they may decide to deal with the physical fence issue when and if it becomes a problem, rather than tackling it now. Perhaps more of an issue (given the level difference) is whether the fence+posts are substantial enough to deal with problems arising from the level difference, as they won't want their land sliding onto the OP's.

P.S. Councils employ women as well as men these days.

mw123

Bendy_House said:

I wouldn't worry.

This is a council-owner property, and they are coming out for a looksee. Good. You should be able to point out that you positioned the new posts exactly where the old ones were - there aren't any signs of 'old' post holes, are there?

Almost certainly the very worst thing that could, just possibly, happen, is that the council says, "Could you move that/these post, please, just to straighten the boundary?" But, as long as you can demonstrate that nothing has actually changed, that's very unlikely.

But it kinda begs the Q - why didn't you discuss this with the neighb during the work, and agree it with him?! He was standing there, wasn't he? "Shall I straighten the fence line while I'm doing this, or just replace it exactly as it was before?"

Yes, the plans on deeds are not to be relied on for precise measurements. When situations like this escalate, then a surveyor specialising in land and borders might need to be called in, but you just don't want to go there... Mind you, a 'hint' of this happening might put the frighteners on the council fellow - they HATE legal disputes. So, if the council fellow is 'bolshie' at all, and is ordering you to do stuff with this fence that you don't consider fair or reasonable (after all, that's how the fence HAS been for a looong time), then you could try a *sigh* - "I guess I'll need to get a surveyor in, then, as I suspect that a good 6-odd inches of your land is actually mine..." (Bear in mind this will be bluff, tho'...)

Bottom line, if you can show the council fellow quite convincing evidence that the new fence is exactly where the old one was, then I doubt very much they'll ask you to do anything about it. You bought your house 7 years ago? Do you have the sales particulars? Does that show pics of the garden? Can you see a slightly wobbly fence line?!

What about Google earth - check that out, see if the fence like wobble can be detected. And then try GE 'history' and go back a bit further.

Anyhoo, almost certainly now't to worry about. I would, tho' start recording any further conversations you have with your neighbour, if he's being belligerent in his manner. You be super-calm and reasonable. Be ready to walk away if he rants.

Thanks for the response Bendy house. Not stressing to much at the moment however it is on my mind. What’s frustrating is the fact that I noticed the were wobbly about 2 months ago and mentioned to the neighbor that I would fix. He said don’t worry yet as there a birds nesting in his abandoned shed nearby. He then came round recently and said they need fixing as scaring his dog. Within a week I had completed it. This conversation was captured on camera and no mention of the post being out of place. Hindsight is a great thing and had I have none the reaction I could have discussed but as I say it never even questioned my mind that there would be an issue. I have so much evidence to show that the fence post has gone back where it was originally such as google earth image which shows the kink, the fact that the decking we have installed about 5 years ago follows the line of the fence, he has put concrete borders his side which follows the line, a tree stump in the way of the fence going straight and he has installed a 4 ft fence to split the top and bottom of his garden which has its post next to our fence the lady coming from the council is a liaison officer so I get the impression she will have a look and see if it can be solved reasonably between us.   

I have some photos which kind of show the fence but they are not the clearest. Didn’t think to check the images from when the property was for sale so will check theses also.

FreeBear

Section62 said: All the councils I've worked with/for have had no qualms whatsoever about legal disputes... if anything the staff I've worked with have positively enjoyed dealing with them.  The council also doesn't have the problem of selling their property with a neighbour dispute issue to put buyers off, so the risk profile is different.

Councils will also have their own in-house legal department. And if they need to pay for barristers & court time, it will be the council tax payer that picks up the bill at the end of the day.

Bendy_House

Section62 said:

Bendy_House said:

...Mind you, a 'hint' of this happening might put the frighteners on the council fellow - they HATE legal disputes. So, if the council fellow is 'bolshie' at all, and is ordering you to do stuff with this fence that you don't consider fair or reasonable (after all, that's how the fence HAS been for a looong time), then you could try a *sigh* - "I guess I'll need to get a surveyor in, then, as I suspect that a good 6-odd inches of your land is actually mine..." (Bear in mind this will be bluff, tho'...)

Bottom line, if you can show the council fellow quite convincing evidence that the new fence is exactly where the old one was, then I doubt very much they'll ask you to do anything about it.

But what makes you think the BiB?

P.S. Councils employ women as well as men these days.

Following the 2008 recession, it became common knowledge around here that the council were reluctant to get involved in litigation, and that was with issues such a Planning if there was a risk of it being drawn-out, or over a relatively trivial matter. If it's a clear-cut issue, or one of significance, then that's different. And that was also from the mouth of a councillor in the local planning committee when we were looking at a house which had an aggi tie.

That was a gender-neutral 'fellow', a bit like 'guy'. If you also highlighted every time I thoughtfully used a gend-neut 'they', then I wouldn't suspect you of, youknowwhat.

diystarter7

OP
I feel for you.
As the others have said, work with the council,
Also, remain extra polite with next door even if you don't feel like it. It will
be hard but worth it as having next door that feels they've been
upset by you is not good.
Importantly, if I've made a genuine mistake, best to admit to it ASAP or a bit later, longer run helps.

I'm optimistic that the council will help and things will settle. Good luck.

Btw, why do you have cctv to the back? I'm safely guessing its to do with security but have you had problems before?

TELLIT01

When you've had a good relationship for several years it seems odd that the neighbour should blow his top over something apparently so trivial.  Maybe he has other things going on to which you are not privy and this was just enough to push him over the edge.  Particularly odd as he didn't have any issue when you did the job the first time.  Hopefully once this is over you will be able to rebuild the relationship. 

mw123

diystarter7 said:

OP
I feel for you.
As the others have said, work with the council,
Also, remain extra polite with next door even if you don't feel like it. It will
be hard but worth it as having next door that feels they've been
upset by you is not good.
Importantly, if I've made a genuine mistake, best to admit to it ASAP or a bit later, longer run helps.

I'm optimistic that the council will help and things will settle. Good luck.

Btw, why do you have cctv to the back? I'm safely guessing its to do with security but have you had problems before?

Thanks diystarter7, yes the plan is to be polite but will only be speaking with the council now. It was all a bit of a shock as we have always had a good relationship and this fence has never been an issue with its positioning. He is a bit of a moaner and the amount of time he has told me he has threatens local trades/council with “his solicitor” doesn’t worry me to much. 

Misery the camera is the ring doorbell on the front of the property, no cctv to the rear. 

I guess I find it strange that there is a kink in the fence however it has always been like that so I have simple replaced like for like. After working on it I don’t see why I should now have to redo it to a straight line after all this time. Further more after now looking into it I feel it possible is in the correct position and all the other are slightly out in his/council last favour.

mw123

TELLIT01 said:

When you've had a good relationship for several years it seems odd that the neighbour should blow his top over something apparently so trivial.  Maybe he has other things going on to which you are not privy and this was just enough to push him over the edge.  Particularly odd as he didn't have any issue when you did the job the first time.  Hopefully once this is over you will be able to rebuild the relationship. 

This is what I said to my wife - you just don’t know what’s going on in his life which is why we will stay polite and not rude to it. We tried to think if there was anything we had done to upset him and cannot think of anything. 

Section62

FreeBear said:

Section62 said: All the councils I've worked with/for have had no qualms whatsoever about legal disputes... if anything the staff I've worked with have positively enjoyed dealing with them.  The council also doesn't have the problem of selling their property with a neighbour dispute issue to put buyers off, so the risk profile is different.

Councils will also have their own in-house legal department. And if they need to pay for barristers & court time, it will be the council tax payer that picks up the bill at the end of the day.

Yup.  And the in-house solicitors need training (and practice), so a way of achieving this is to give them some court time on fairly minor issues like a boundary dispute.  Hence the positive enjoyment, because it all adds up to CPD and a nicely burnished CV.

Councils can also always fall back on the need to protect public rights as an excuse for the costs of litigation.  If everyone was allowed to steal two inches of council land the total loss would be huge.  So taking forward a 'trivial' issue to make an example of someone has a wider benefit than just the one case.

A planning issue involving an agricultural tie is rather niche by comparison, and the concept of ag ties in our increasingly liberal planning system is a bit of an anathema. So I'm not surprised there was hesitancy to resort to litigation on that one.  It doesn't follow that a housing officer will be in any way frightened by the threat of litigation regarding the position of a fence post.