bowing retaining wall with adjoining elevated neighbour garden - selling the house

geronimo787

Hi all,

we bought a house eight years ago and planning on selling next spring. We also have a 2yo toddler.
The house that we bought is in a residential neighbourhood of a city and it is a slightly hilly area.
Below I drawn a diagram of our house and neighbouring properties, our house (in red) has some steps in the middle of our garden and the bottom part of our garden is lower than the top half. Looking down the garden, our right neighbours have their garden all at the same level (and the neighbours beyond too), meanwhile our neighbours to the left all have a split garden. Ourselves and the neighbours to the left all have their garden level with the road at the back.

The retaining wall with our neighbours on the right is in an abysmal state, it is bowing dramatically and to add to the drama, it is a single skin bricked walled supporting probably 1 meter and a half of soil of the neighbours garden, and on the boundary there is a massive hedge planted, which is either pushing the wall out with its root - or perhaps it is keeping it from falling as the root balls are keeping it all in check!
Interestingly, just outside our two houses the party wall is a block wall (so the same width as a double skin brick), for then becoming a double skin brick wall, to then become a single skin brick wall and placed on our side of the two skin brick wall rather than in the middle.

As we have a 2yo toddler, this bowing retaining wall has become more of a concern for us; but also as we are planning on selling soon we are wary to not create any angry dispute with the neighbours (property is tenanted).

I looked back at our deeds and downloaded the neighbours deeds, there is of course no clear answer on who is owning the wall and whose responsibility is to maintain the wall.
Funnily enough a few years back we paid 100% out of our own pocket repairs to the brick party wall with our neighbour on the left, as the standing assumption on the street is that you own the wall to your left, but I guess street law is not law!
When we engaged with the owner on the right a few years back, he mentioned that with the retaining wall being a single skin brick and within "the middle line", he doesn't want to have anything to do with it.

On a solicitor website it mentioned:

"This position is different however when there is a retaining wall. It is generally accepted that the person whose land is retained by the wall is responsible for its repair and maintenance. If we go back to the example we gave previously if your property is based on a hill and your neighbours garden is supported by a retaining wall above your property, that would mean it is their responsibility to maintain that wall.

EXCEPTIONS

There are some exceptions to this general position however if the landowner of the lower land to a retaining wall has excavated a way to his own land to provide a lower but level area or if the owner of the land on the lower part of the retained wall had undertaken repair works that can indicate they have assumed responsibility for maintaining that retained wall."

So I really don't know where we are standing.
All of the properties on our right have an elevated garden, so the land of our adjoining property is retained by the wall, thus going with the above it is their responsibility.
However, for all we know decades ago our bottom part of the garden could have been excavated to be at the same level as the back road.

Our question to you kind members are:
1. would there even be a slim chance to clearly determine who owns that wall? I can imagine it will be a lengthy and expensive process.
2. based on all the provided information, if people have been in similar situations what has been their outcomes?
3. seeing that our plans are to sell next year, is it worth engaging in a long winded process, and perhaps entering disputes? Will it affect the sellability of the house? (we live in a "hot area" where houses are snatched in a couple days.

Thanks

geronimo787

here is a map of our house and adjoining properties, showing our neighbours to the left having also lowered bottom garden, the road at the back and the bowing retaining wall in object marked marked with red crosses

geronimo787

Sorry and I suppose the last question would have been, what kind of contractor would we hire to repair a bowing retaining wall, as I don't feel like it is something that our general brickie that has done our kitchen would do? And are we talking 10s grands of work? (the retaining wall is probably 15m long).
Thanks again

FreeBear

geronimo787 said:

Sorry and I suppose the last question would have been, what kind of contractor would we hire to repair a bowing retaining wall, as I don't feel like it is something that our general brickie that has done our kitchen would do? And are we talking 10s grands of work? (the retaining wall is probably 15m long).
Thanks again

Try a company that specialises in ground works first. They will have the machinery on hand to do the heavy grunt work, and if they don't do walls, will certainly know someone that can. But.... What is access like ?

If you are doing a lot of excavating, having a mini-digger on site will speed up the work considerably.

Section62

geronimo787 said:

Sorry and I suppose the last question would have been, what kind of contractor would we hire to repair a bowing retaining wall, as I don't feel like it is something that our general brickie that has done our kitchen would do? And are we talking 10s grands of work? (the retaining wall is probably 15m long).
Thanks again

Before anything else, get the wall inspected by a structural engineer.  Get the current condition of the wall and properties documented with photographs.  Ask the SE for advice on the best approach for repair/replacement.

A builder or groundworks contractor may well tell you it is a project they can handle 'no problem', but a wall retaining ~1.5m of ground needs to be designed properly, and the first step to that is understanding what has gone wrong with the existing wall.

geronimo787

Section62 said:

Before anything else, get the wall inspected by a structural engineer.  Get the current condition of the wall and properties documented with photographs.  Ask the SE for advice on the best approach for repair/replacement.

A builder or groundworks contractor may well tell you it is a project they can handle 'no problem', but a wall retaining ~1.5m of ground needs to be designed properly, and the first step to that is understanding what has gone wrong with the existing wall.

Would this be a SE specialised in gardens/ terrain / groundwork or any SE could do?

diystarter7

Get a few quotes in from ground works experts with good feedback.
Listen to what they say, let them finish
Ask them if they have not already stated why the wall moved in their judgment and what would they do if it was their property.
Then seek quotes and tell them to clearly state the depth of foundations and new wall width, heights etc, etc.

Sleep on it and then take it from there.
Ensure they have good feedback re relevant jobs.

(Btw, your choice as some people get easily wound up - tell next door re your concerns and be honest
and tell them there are no records of ownership but as its shared boundary any chance of them contributing
 -  invte them into your garden and tell them re your concenrs - be prpared for a no and dont fall out, tell them
you are going ahead and will let them know when works are to start and thank them for their time)

diystarter7

Btw, did you apply for the plans as they often show boundary fence/wall responsibility via a red 'T' sign. Go for both plans yours and next door

eddddy

geronimo787 said:

The retaining wall with our neighbours on the right is in an abysmal state, it is bowing dramatically and to add to the drama, it is a single skin bricked walled supporting probably 1 meter and a half of soil of the neighbours garden,

I suspect the single skin brickwork is just decorative - it's been built to hide the 'real' retaining wall, which might be ugly concrete, for example.

As you say, responsibility for the retaining wall depends on whether

• A previous owner of your house lowered the garden ground level, and built the retaining wall, or
• A previous owner of the neighbour's house raised their garden ground level, and built the retaining wall

(But even if you conclude it's the neighbour's responsibility - your neighbour might disagree and/or they might not care! If it comes to it, would you be prepared to take your neighbour to court?)

Maybe start by having a discussion with your neighbour about it, to see if they think it's their responsibility or yours. Or maybe suggest a 50/50 split.

Section62

geronimo787 said:

Section62 said:

Before anything else, get the wall inspected by a structural engineer.  Get the current condition of the wall and properties documented with photographs.  Ask the SE for advice on the best approach for repair/replacement.

A builder or groundworks contractor may well tell you it is a project they can handle 'no problem', but a wall retaining ~1.5m of ground needs to be designed properly, and the first step to that is understanding what has gone wrong with the existing wall.

Would this be a SE specialised in gardens/ terrain / groundwork or any SE could do?

The SE should be one who has some retaining structure experience, but most will.  Really it is a case of finding one who has an interest in small retaining structures, rather than a specialist as such.

Be prepared to write off the cost of the SE if you ultimately find the neighbour is responsible for the wall - this part of the process is solely about your peace of mind and mapping out your next steps.

diystarter7 said:

Get a few quotes in from ground works experts with good feedback.
Listen to what they say, let them finish
Ask them if they have not already stated why the wall moved in their judgment and what would they do if it was their property.
Then seek quotes and tell them to clearly state the depth of foundations and new wall width, heights etc, etc.

Sleep on it and then take it from there.
Ensure they have good feedback re relevant jobs.

No.  The wall needs looking at by a structural engineer.  "Ground works experts" won't have the expertise to diagnose the problem and write a report which may later be needed for legal action.  Also, contractors are very unlikely to the trouble of employing a SE to design a wall just for the purpose of providing a quote. So their views on the depth of foundations/widths/heights etc won't be of much value.

geronimo787

diystarter7 said:

Btw, did you apply for the plans as they often show boundary fence/wall responsibility via a red 'T' sign. Go for both plans yours and next door

yes I did and both plans (drawn in the 70s I believe) are a thin black line to demark the land plot and a highlighted red thicker line on the inside of the plot line, so no indication there