EV range

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

tedted said:

i think hes talking about britishvolt going into administration

That makes more sense, here's an article : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149
It says that:
"The UK currently only has one Chinese-owned battery plant next to the Nissan factory in Sunderland, while 35 plants are planned or already under construction in the European Union.

Industry experts have said the UK will need several battery factories to support the future of UK car making as pure petrol and diesel engines are phased out over the next decade."

So it just means buying the batteries from the EU and all of the logistical issues associated with that. It's certainly not going to be the downfall of the EV industry.

It also means more cost for

And possible shortages - due to that word" brexit"
I mean - during shortages - why would Europe want to help a country that doesnt want anything to do with Europe?
The government has 7 years to get this sorted or UK will be in the stuck
Unless it changes its plans to stop IC cars 

Absolutely true, but wouldn't the same problems apply to UK built IC cars? They are almost all reliant on EU parts which will see a huge reduction in demand. Will they keep IC factories running to supply us with parts?

ComicGeek

Herzlos said:

jimbo6977 said:

Jenni_D said:

jimbo6977 said:

regarding charging losses, if a petrol pump was sending only 85-95% of the recorded amount of petrol to customers' tanks the station would be shut down and the owner prosecuted. but in EV world this is all tickety-boo it seems. 

🙄

Another pointless whataboutery. How much energy is expended (lost) pumping the fuel? How much is lost getting the fuel to the filling station? How much is lost in producing the fuel? (And all this before we consider the energy transfer efficiency of an ICE engine).

it's not whataboutery, it's simple case of paying for quantity M of a product and receiving quantity M x 9/10

regardless of how the product got to the dispensing point, and what the customer does with the product afterwards, how is this acceptable?

How much petrol do people waste driving to petrol stations?

Electricity efficiency losses happen with every electrical device, it's just how it works and I can't really see it being a sticking point for anyone?

And not only that, but surely the electrical losses are more to do with the EVs (ie maintaining battery temperature while charging, AC to DC losses etc) than the charge point itself. It's not really the charge point's fault that losses exist.

I think of it more like the gas supply to the house - no matter what I do, I'm not going to be 100% efficient in converting this into useful heat. That's not the gas supplier's fault . There are things that I can do to maximise efficiency, but ultimately there will always be some losses.

Grumpy_chap

jimbo6977 said:

Jenni_D said:

jimbo6977 said:

regarding charging losses, if a petrol pump was sending only 85-95% of the recorded amount of petrol to customers' tanks the station would be shut down and the owner prosecuted. but in EV world this is all tickety-boo it seems. 

🙄

Another pointless whataboutery. How much energy is expended (lost) pumping the fuel? How much is lost getting the fuel to the filling station? How much is lost in producing the fuel? (And all this before we consider the energy transfer efficiency of an ICE engine).

it's not whataboutery, it's simple case of paying for quantity M of a product and receiving quantity M x 9/10

regardless of how the product got to the dispensing point, and what the customer does with the product afterwards, how is this acceptable?

But the charging losses are what the customer does with it afterwards.

You buy a quantity of M units of electricity and put that into the charging system for the car and ultimately M x 9/10 (or whatever proportion it is - I used your figure for simplicity) is what gets stored in the battery.  That inefficiency is all owned by the vehicle operator who still got the full M from the electricity supplier.

jimbo6977

Grumpy_chap said:

jimbo6977 said:

Jenni_D said:

jimbo6977 said:

regarding charging losses, if a petrol pump was sending only 85-95% of the recorded amount of petrol to customers' tanks the station would be shut down and the owner prosecuted. but in EV world this is all tickety-boo it seems. 

🙄

Another pointless whataboutery. How much energy is expended (lost) pumping the fuel? How much is lost getting the fuel to the filling station? How much is lost in producing the fuel? (And all this before we consider the energy transfer efficiency of an ICE engine).

it's not whataboutery, it's simple case of paying for quantity M of a product and receiving quantity M x 9/10

regardless of how the product got to the dispensing point, and what the customer does with the product afterwards, how is this acceptable?

But the charging losses are what the customer does with it afterwards.

You buy a quantity of M units of electricity and put that into the charging system for the car and ultimately M x 9/10 (or whatever proportion it is - I used your figure for simplicity) is what gets stored in the battery.  That inefficiency is all owned by the vehicle operator who still got the full M from the electricity supplier.

So what you're saying is that electric cars have the equivalent of a fuel filler cap that ensures you always pour petrol over your shoes? (Without the fire hazard and the ruined shoes). 

Grumpy_chap

jimbo6977 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

But the charging losses are what the customer does with it afterwards.

You buy a quantity of M units of electricity and put that into the charging system for the car and ultimately M x 9/10 (or whatever proportion it is - I used your figure for simplicity) is what gets stored in the battery.  That inefficiency is all owned by the vehicle operator who still got the full M from the electricity supplier.

So what you're saying is that electric cars have the equivalent of a fuel filler cap that ensures you always pour petrol over your shoes? (Without the fire hazard and the ruined shoes). 

Well, you can think of it like that if you wish.

I think the big-picture here is that for every kWh of energy you pay for to fill an EV, you will get 3 or 4 miles of distance travelled.

For every kWh of energy you pay for to fill an ICE, you will get 1.5 or 2 miles of distance travelled.

I know which I'd prefer.  

Add to that the potential for the EV to be all green energy.  
Add to that the potential for the EV to have much cheaper energy than petrol pump / public charger prices.

Grumpy_chap

Jenni_D said:

Re. your vampire consumption point ... the MG4 uses very little when idle. Anecdotal evidence is that some people have fully-charged their cars, left it for a few days and still come back to 100% on the GOM (Guess-O-Meter). 

"Vampire Consumption" is a "thing" that is referenced in terms of EVs and I don't understand why that would be the case.

I can take my ICE car to the airport, park and return after a 2-week holiday and the teeny 12V battery has been sufficient to support all the residual circuits of the car (clocks, alarms etc.) and still has enough power to start the engine.

Why would an EV be any different?
(Sentry mode is a different thing on a TESLA, which simply wouldn't be conceivable for an ICE as the 12V battery would be flat left for an afternoon shopping.  I understand Sentry mode is optional to activate.)

Is "Vampire Consumption" just another "thing" introduced by the naysayers?

Herzlos

Grumpy_chap said:

jimbo6977 said:

Jenni_D said:

jimbo6977 said:

regarding charging losses, if a petrol pump was sending only 85-95% of the recorded amount of petrol to customers' tanks the station would be shut down and the owner prosecuted. but in EV world this is all tickety-boo it seems. 

🙄

Another pointless whataboutery. How much energy is expended (lost) pumping the fuel? How much is lost getting the fuel to the filling station? How much is lost in producing the fuel? (And all this before we consider the energy transfer efficiency of an ICE engine).

it's not whataboutery, it's simple case of paying for quantity M of a product and receiving quantity M x 9/10

regardless of how the product got to the dispensing point, and what the customer does with the product afterwards, how is this acceptable?

But the charging losses are what the customer does with it afterwards.

You buy a quantity of M units of electricity and put that into the charging system for the car and ultimately M x 9/10 (or whatever proportion it is - I used your figure for simplicity) is what gets stored in the battery.  That inefficiency is all owned by the vehicle operator who still got the full M from the electricity supplier.

But that's how energy in general works; losses happen at every stage. Any electrical item gets hot? Unless you're trying to get heat (kettle, stove, etc) then all that heat is wasted energy that's been paid for. A phone charger will take M units of electricity and pass 90% of them onto your phone. The only difference with an electric car is that the battery is much bigger so the absolute amount wasted is bigger.

But if you view it as miles per kwh consumed at source, it's easy enough to understand and compare, because we do the same thing with IC fuels.

Everyone is happy to put M units of petrol in their car and have 60% of it wasted in heat/noise instead of propulsion.
Or to pay for the inefficiencies with turning oil into petrol and getting to a pump. Admittedly this is hidden within the cost of at the pump anyway.

mgfvvc

jimbo6977 said:

So what you're saying is that electric cars have the equivalent of a fuel filler cap that ensures you always pour petrol over your shoes? (Without the fire hazard and the ruined shoes). 

A big part of any internal combustion engine is a cooling system that is designed to take around 80% of the energy from your petrol and use it it heat the air behind your car instead of driving your wheels.

jimbo6977

mgfvvc said:

jimbo6977 said:

So what you're saying is that electric cars have the equivalent of a fuel filler cap that ensures you always pour petrol over your shoes? (Without the fire hazard and the ruined shoes). 

A big part of any internal combustion engine is a cooling system that is designed to take around 80% of the energy from your petrol and use it it heat the air behind your car instead of driving your wheels.

sure, but when i buy a litre of petrol, i get a lire of petrol. what my car/lawnmower/etc does with it is irrelevant to the honesty of the transaction of purchasing petrol.

to give a non-car example, when i buy 500g of cornflakes, i get 500g of cornflakes - whether i choose to eat them, make sculptures out of them, or set fire to them, it's my lookout: i've received the 500g of cornflakes that i paid for.

in the same way, if i buy a kwh of leccy i would expect to receive a kwh of leccy, rather than ~0.9kwh of leccy. however as someone has helpfully confirmed above, it seems the problem of the ~0.1kwh shortfall is on the buyer's end rather than the seller's end. 



are there any published figures as to which ev models incur more or less loss at point of charge?

Herzlos

But you did get 1kw of electricity, it's just lost to inefficiencies (heat) earlier in the process than petrol.

You're fixating on that part because it seems like something to hold over EV's, but of that 1kw of electricity you paid for, about 90% of it makes the car go forward whereas of the 1l of petrol you buy, about 30% of it makes the car go forward.

That the electric motor waste is mostly at filling and not at propulsion is completely irrelevant.