Pub parking PCN. Can this ever be appealed successfully?

iftttnewbie

So my vehicle (I'm the registered keeper) was driven to a pub in Kent, which has parking bays free of charge. I personally used it many times in the past.

However, they have sent me this attached PCN for Unauthorised Entry / Parking for 44 mins when all we did was to go in for a pint and come back out to drive home:
http s://ibb.co/t2tjdn1 (remove the space between the p and s)

The laughable part is that their pictures of this alleged contravention shows presumably my vehicle (can't really see but they have some sort of ANPR system which has logged my registration number so most likely my vehicle) with a really dark black background, so there is literally no evidence here on their part that any contravention took place.



I appealed with this:

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I have received your parking charge notice (PCN) number XXXX which alleges a breach of contract at Spring River, Talbot Lane, Ebbsfleet, DA10 1AZ. This Notice to Keeper PCN is invalid for the following reasons:
1 – You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, to give the notice of keeper liability in the format prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.
2 – The driver parked in the pub car park for the use of the pub services and was a patron and therefore had implied access to be a customer of the pub.
3 – The signage was inadequate to convey to the driver of the registration process required to authorise the vehicle. If it was adequate, then the driver would have no hesitation or reason not to follow the process.
4 – Having spoken to the pub as the registered keeper, they have advised that I follow your appeal process. They have also stated that the operator, i.e. Premier Park, will cancel the PCN after a satisfactory check with the pub itself that a legitimate payment was made for the use of the pub services.
As well as verification from the pub itself, I attach further evidence of an online card transaction receipt which confirms that the pub’s services were purchased on the same date of the alleged contravention. In conclusion, I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.
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Their response is as follows:

We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent online appeal, on behalf of the driver, appealing against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the vehicle.

We note your comments and must refer you to the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 - Recovery of unpaid Parking Charges. This is available to view online at:

http /www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4 (remove the space in between p and                                                                    

We now therefore request that the details of the driver of the vehicle at the time of the contravention are supplied; this must include their full name and serviceable postal address.  If you are unwilling or unable to provide these details the registered keeper of this vehicle will remain liable for this PCN.  This information should be provided by 7th June 2022.  Please note, Premier Park Limited will not reply to any correspondence until after the above date, if the requested information is not provided.

If we do not receive this information by the above date, the appeal will be formally responded to and we will hold you liable as the Registered Keeper of the vehicle on the date of the contravention. Please note if we receive correspondence from the driver at the time of the incident we will not respond to you further on this matter. 

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Can this be challenged successfully? Or will someone like POPLA just go with the letter of the law even though I have sent them a proof of payment to demonstrate that the pub's services were used.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all

Coupon-mad

They are just begging by standard reply to know who was driving. You just ignore that but you should be showing them EVIDENCE that the driver paid for stuff on the pub, not just saying you have it.

Show it now to them now because POPLA won't consider evidence of 'being a patron'.

PP should, but you have to show it.

What made you think the PCN was non-POFA?

iftttnewbie

I have attached a banking app screenshot already in my appeal to show a credit card statement showing the balance being paid for pub services.

I got mixed up on the PCN between another PCN that was previously issued by a council. Apologies.

So what should I write back to PP?

Coupon-mad

No, I think there is a small issue with some PP notice to keepers, but I was asking you what made you think it is non-POFA?

I already said what to do with that standard guff.

iftttnewbie

Thanks coupon-mad. To be honest, I just copied and pasted from an old appeal for a council PCN.

So considering a credit card app screenshot has already been provided showing payment for pub drinks in my appeal, do I just ignore this email or do I respond saying just process my appeal as the registered keeper?

Coupon-mad

, I just copied and pasted from an old appeal for a council PCN.

You can't have done, because the POFA doesn't relate to council PCNs! It is potentially relevant to your PCN.

Maybe just reply and repeat this and say you will escalate a complaint to your MP to write to them and their client if they fail to cancel as required by the pub:

Having spoken to the pub as the registered keeper, they have advised that I follow your appeal process. They have also stated that the operator, i.e. Premier Park, will cancel the PCN after a satisfactory check with the pub itself that a legitimate payment was made for the use of the pub services.

iftttnewbie

Thanks for your help. 

So Premier Park responded with:

"

Thank you for your appeal, on behalf of the driver, against the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have carefully considered your appeal, however on this occasion the appeal has been rejected for the following reason;

 

Whilst we note the comments and reason for appeal, we can confirm that the vehicle remained on site for 44 minutes with no permit to authorise your stay. We must advise that this car park is run by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras which take a time and date stamped image of the vehicle on entry and exit, measuring the length of time the vehicle remained on site, this information is then cross-referenced with the data from the permit systems. Due to no permit being found, we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.

 

We are on this occasion prepared to accept the reduced amount shown above, this is to ensure we comply with section 17.4 Keying Errors of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice. Please note this offer is without prejudice save as to costs.    

 

Please be advised that the terms and conditions advise that the full registration number must be entered on each occasion.

 

We can confirm that any further PCNs issued to you for this reason will not be reduced and this is a one-off offer.

 

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have two options; you can either pay or appeal to POPLA - you cannot do both

"

The reduced amount is £20. I'm considering paying this as its less but also thinking that if PP thought they would win then they wouldn't drop the charge amount. What should I do here? 

Umkomaas

The reduced amount is £20. I'm considering paying this as its less but also thinking that if PP thought they would win then they wouldn't drop the charge amount. What

Pragmatic approach. It could take you months and months to get the PPC to drop this (and then the charge would be £100, which might make them more inclined to continue to pursue for some time to see if you will cave). The cost of a couple of gallons of petrol sees this off. 

Fruitcake

Your decision should be based upon whether the NTK was or was not PoFA compliant (you still haven't told us if it is).
If it was compliant, you will have an uphill struggle, but you could still win at PoPLA on other points such as inadequate signage.
If it was not compliant then you should win at PoPLA.

Did you complain to the pub manager and/or brewery CEO? PoPLA codes last for 32 days, so you probably still have time to get a landowner cancellation with the option to pay the £20 and never visit the pub again if that fails.

Coupon-mad

You could tell the pub that the PPC still expects you to pay £20 even though you did nothing wrong, and given the pub staff were at fault* are they prepared to pay this or to lean on their agent to cancel in full, in order to keep your goodwill and future custom?



* I assume? Failed to alert you to the unexpected keypad system to exempt the VRM?

iftttnewbie

Thanks for all your help. I just paid the £20 PCN fee for what it's worth.