Section 21 Help please

SavvySaverSam

Utterlyconfused81 said:

Hi,

 

After a little advice if anyone can help.  Tried searching the answer online to no avail.

Currently living in a rented property where we’ve been for a little over 2 years.  Our landlord has decided to sell the property and we were advised a couple of weeks ago.  We were served section 21 advising that we had 2 months’ notice to leave the property.  This was all fine as our 6-month agreement ended on the 10th of this month.  As such we paid for this month’s rent, where as previously we had been paying 6 months upfront per the request of the landlord.

We scrambled desperately to find a suitable new rental as we have a dog which makes the potential available property pool far smaller than for those without pets.  Thankfully found one two weeks ago and all but finalized the paperwork this week with a proposal of taking on the tenancy from the 6th June, thinking this would be ideal as we will have an overlap of 1 week to get the move done and then return to our current property for a deep clean once empty.

Upon contacting our estate agent and asking whether an exit inspection was going to be taking place with the property being sold we were told that we had to give a months’ notice!  We were never informed that after we were served notice that we in turn would have to provide further notice.  The only communication we had had with the agent was that payment for this month needed to be paid (which was done on the day) and that should we wish to remain in the property for a further month, an additional payment would need to be made for that.

Given that we were never going to be able to give 1 months’ notice on 10th of this month having not had time to secure another tenancy is that legal that they can now insist that regardless of being in the property or not that we will have to pay next month’s rent?

It feels a very biased system if that’s the case as they may as well just state we have to give 2 months’ notice.

Any advice / help would be greatly appreciated.

This is utterly ridiculous. 

The agents are being unreasonable here. S21 specifically state that the LL requires the property to be returned by X date, you are simply vacating in accordance with the notice. 

The notice period at this time is irrelevant. 

I definitely recommend negotiating with the agents. 

Highlight the above and the fact that the market is so competitive at present, which I’m sure they’re aware of already. 

On average, the wait time for a possession hearing is 3 months due to the backlog during the pandemic. 

If you fail to find a new property by the date of expiry, not only will the agents have to wait a significant time for a hearing, it will also be costly to the LL. 

I work for one of the largest managing agents in the UK & when we serve S21, we would never hold a tenant to a notice period as we have requested they leave!! 

RAS

SavvySaverSam said:

Utterlyconfused81 said:

We were served section 21 advising that we had 2 months’ notice to leave the property.  This was all fine as our 6-month agreement ended on the 10th of this month.  As such we paid for this month’s rent, where as previously we had been paying 6 months upfront per the request of the landlord.

The agents are being unreasonable here. S21 specifically state that the LL requires the property to be returned by X date, you are simply vacating in accordance with the notice. 

But the OP did not vacate the property by the end of the fixed term, so you are wrong.

The S21 ended on 10 May and they are still there and have rolled over onto a periodic tenancy.

So they need to give notice as per their contract, unless that it silent on the notice periods in which case it is a statutory periodic tenancy. 

Agreed that since the LL wats to sell, it may be to their advantage to agree an early surrender but the OP hasn't asked for one. And the LL may be one of those who wants the rent as long as possible and wants to maximise their sale price by claiming it's vacant possession.

Gycraig

RAS said:

SavvySaverSam said:

Utterlyconfused81 said:

We were served section 21 advising that we had 2 months’ notice to leave the property.  This was all fine as our 6-month agreement ended on the 10th of this month.  As such we paid for this month’s rent, where as previously we had been paying 6 months upfront per the request of the landlord.

The agents are being unreasonable here. S21 specifically state that the LL requires the property to be returned by X date, you are simply vacating in accordance with the notice. 

But the OP did not vacate the property by the end of the fixed term, so you are wrong.

The S21 ended on 10 May and they are still there and have rolled over onto a periodic tenancy.

So they need to give notice as per their contract, unless that it silent on the notice periods in which case it is a statutory periodic tenancy. 

Agreed that since the LL wats to sell, it may be to their advantage to agree an early surrender but the OP hasn't asked for one. And the LL may be one of those who wants the rent as long as possible and wants to maximise their sale price by claiming it's vacant possession.

That is a frankly mental strategy tbh, nearly everyone I know would walk away when they see a house with tenants in. 

Also the end of there 6 month lease and the date on a section 21 can be completely different. There tenancy could finish on the 10th and section 21 can be any time after that. 

Richiem1987

Gycraig said:

RAS said:

SavvySaverSam said:

Utterlyconfused81 said:

We were served section 21 advising that we had 2 months’ notice to leave the property.  This was all fine as our 6-month agreement ended on the 10th of this month.  As such we paid for this month’s rent, where as previously we had been paying 6 months upfront per the request of the landlord.

The agents are being unreasonable here. S21 specifically state that the LL requires the property to be returned by X date, you are simply vacating in accordance with the notice. 

But the OP did not vacate the property by the end of the fixed term, so you are wrong.

The S21 ended on 10 May and they are still there and have rolled over onto a periodic tenancy.

So they need to give notice as per their contract, unless that it silent on the notice periods in which case it is a statutory periodic tenancy. 

Agreed that since the LL wats to sell, it may be to their advantage to agree an early surrender but the OP hasn't asked for one. And the LL may be one of those who wants the rent as long as possible and wants to maximise their sale price by claiming it's vacant possession.

That is a frankly mental strategy tbh, nearly everyone I know would walk away when they see a house with tenants in. 

Also the end of there 6 month lease and the date on a section 21 can be completely different. There tenancy could finish on the 10th and section 21 can be any time after that. 

Selling a house with sitting tenants once S21s are no more will become more and more common. Yes, the LL could go down the S8 route, but that's a lot of expense with no gaurantee's of an eviction being succesful. 

user1977

Richiem1987 said:

Gycraig said:

RAS said:

SavvySaverSam said:

Utterlyconfused81 said:

We were served section 21 advising that we had 2 months’ notice to leave the property.  This was all fine as our 6-month agreement ended on the 10th of this month.  As such we paid for this month’s rent, where as previously we had been paying 6 months upfront per the request of the landlord.

The agents are being unreasonable here. S21 specifically state that the LL requires the property to be returned by X date, you are simply vacating in accordance with the notice. 

But the OP did not vacate the property by the end of the fixed term, so you are wrong.

The S21 ended on 10 May and they are still there and have rolled over onto a periodic tenancy.

So they need to give notice as per their contract, unless that it silent on the notice periods in which case it is a statutory periodic tenancy. 

Agreed that since the LL wats to sell, it may be to their advantage to agree an early surrender but the OP hasn't asked for one. And the LL may be one of those who wants the rent as long as possible and wants to maximise their sale price by claiming it's vacant possession.

That is a frankly mental strategy tbh, nearly everyone I know would walk away when they see a house with tenants in. 

Also the end of there 6 month lease and the date on a section 21 can be completely different. There tenancy could finish on the 10th and section 21 can be any time after that. 

Selling a house with sitting tenants once S21s are no more will become more and more common. 

What makes you think that? "No no-fault evictions" doesn't mean there won't be exceptions - in Scotland for example landlords can still evict if they're intending to sell (or e.g. move back in).

Richiem1987

user1977 said:

Richiem1987 said:

Gycraig said:

RAS said:

SavvySaverSam said:

Utterlyconfused81 said:

We were served section 21 advising that we had 2 months’ notice to leave the property.  This was all fine as our 6-month agreement ended on the 10th of this month.  As such we paid for this month’s rent, where as previously we had been paying 6 months upfront per the request of the landlord.

The agents are being unreasonable here. S21 specifically state that the LL requires the property to be returned by X date, you are simply vacating in accordance with the notice. 

But the OP did not vacate the property by the end of the fixed term, so you are wrong.

The S21 ended on 10 May and they are still there and have rolled over onto a periodic tenancy.

So they need to give notice as per their contract, unless that it silent on the notice periods in which case it is a statutory periodic tenancy. 

Agreed that since the LL wats to sell, it may be to their advantage to agree an early surrender but the OP hasn't asked for one. And the LL may be one of those who wants the rent as long as possible and wants to maximise their sale price by claiming it's vacant possession.

That is a frankly mental strategy tbh, nearly everyone I know would walk away when they see a house with tenants in. 

Also the end of there 6 month lease and the date on a section 21 can be completely different. There tenancy could finish on the 10th and section 21 can be any time after that. 

Selling a house with sitting tenants once S21s are no more will become more and more common. 

What makes you think that? "No no-fault evictions" doesn't mean there won't be exceptions - in Scotland for example landlords can still evict if they're intending to sell (or e.g. move back in).

Will be exceptions via an S8, and they can do it, however, instead of a S21 where the eviction is a formaility as long as the S21 itself is valid, the S8 is not a formality, and its up to the courts to make a decision (they will have discretion). The tenant could fight it with mitigating circumstances and the court could then refuse to execute the eviction. The LL, if still wishes to sell, would have to sell it with sitting tenants, dispite forking out for a S8 and court time. With that, many LLs may decide just to sell the property with sitting tenants to save time. Many tenants won't fight it, or won't have a valid reason to fight it, but some will. 

RAS

Since none of us know what the legislation will look like, it's premature to even guess what will happen.

It may take even longer than the leasehold reforms? It may be as highly promoted as the less than comprehensively fulfilled cladding support. 

Even when it gets into Parliament there's no guarantee the proposal will be passed in that form.

deannagone

If the LA are being unreasonable, I'd suggest as already mentioned above that you contact the LL directly, as suggested, and advise that you have been lucky enough to find a property but giving a month's notice would make it impossible to move, and you'd then have to stay on until a court date is arranged.

I hear you saying you have no intention of doing that, but it might be necessary to point out to the LL that this can happen, prevented if they don't shoot themself in the foot by refusing to allow to move out without a full months notice.  Don't play the game on their side lol.  You want to move to this new place.

Whether this will work depends on whether the LL is interested in a trouble free selling period although with no rent coming in, or if the LL is the 'have cake and eat it' sort who wants to maintain their rent income as long as possible while trying to sell the property, with all the hassle that involves for buyers, estate agents, tenants and themselves.

Like lots of people, I have been there, phone calls from LL/EA arrogantly arranging viewings, painting (yep he tried that one), while you are trying to organise packing and moving out.  Will be a lot better for all concerned if you can be allowed to move without a full months notice.., even if legally you should.  Canny negotiation is key.

user1977

Richiem1987 said:

user1977 said:

Richiem1987 said:

Gycraig said:

RAS said:

SavvySaverSam said:

Utterlyconfused81 said:

We were served section 21 advising that we had 2 months’ notice to leave the property.  This was all fine as our 6-month agreement ended on the 10th of this month.  As such we paid for this month’s rent, where as previously we had been paying 6 months upfront per the request of the landlord.

The agents are being unreasonable here. S21 specifically state that the LL requires the property to be returned by X date, you are simply vacating in accordance with the notice. 

But the OP did not vacate the property by the end of the fixed term, so you are wrong.

The S21 ended on 10 May and they are still there and have rolled over onto a periodic tenancy.

So they need to give notice as per their contract, unless that it silent on the notice periods in which case it is a statutory periodic tenancy. 

Agreed that since the LL wats to sell, it may be to their advantage to agree an early surrender but the OP hasn't asked for one. And the LL may be one of those who wants the rent as long as possible and wants to maximise their sale price by claiming it's vacant possession.

That is a frankly mental strategy tbh, nearly everyone I know would walk away when they see a house with tenants in. 

Also the end of there 6 month lease and the date on a section 21 can be completely different. There tenancy could finish on the 10th and section 21 can be any time after that. 

Selling a house with sitting tenants once S21s are no more will become more and more common. 

What makes you think that? "No no-fault evictions" doesn't mean there won't be exceptions - in Scotland for example landlords can still evict if they're intending to sell (or e.g. move back in).

Will be exceptions via an S8, and they can do it, however, instead of a S21 where the eviction is a formaility as long as the S21 itself is valid, the S8 is not a formality, and its up to the courts to make a decision (they will have discretion). The tenant could fight it with mitigating circumstances and the court could then refuse to execute the eviction.

You think a Tory government is going to come up with legislation more tenant-friendly than the SNP did?

saajan_12

Utterlyconfused81 said:

Hi,

 

After a little advice if anyone can help.  Tried searching the answer online to no avail.

Currently living in a rented property where we’ve been for a little over 2 years.  Our landlord has decided to sell the property and we were advised a couple of weeks ago.  We were served section 21 advising that we had 2 months’ notice to leave the property. - unlikely.. the S21 would have said you had 2 months' notice that they would go to court ie you leave in ~6+ months time   This was all fine as our 6-month agreement ended on the 10th of this month.  As such we paid for this month’s rent, where as previously we had been paying 6 months upfront per the request of the landlord.

We scrambled desperately to find a suitable new rental as we have a dog which makes the potential available property pool far smaller than for those without pets.  Thankfully found one two weeks ago and all but finalized the paperwork this week with a proposal of taking on the tenancy from the 6th June, thinking this would be ideal as we will have an overlap of 1 week to get the move done and then return to our current property for a deep clean once empty. - great, if that works for you. Did you serve notice 2 weeks ago since you planned to leave a month later? 

Upon contacting our estate agent and asking whether an exit inspection was going to be taking place with the property being sold we were told that we had to give a months’ notice!  - well yes, that's statutory law if you're on a SPT, or would be written into  your contract if you're on a CPT. We were never informed that after we were served notice that we in turn would have to provide further notice.  - well you probably were informed by your contract and since they didn't say anything to the contrary, why wouldn't you think that still stands (the S21 doesn't ask you to leave in 2 months, only talks about court). The only communication we had had with the agent was that payment for this month needed to be paid (which was done on the day) and that should we wish to remain in the property for a further month, an additional payment would need to be made for that. - well yes, if you stay then you pay, but that doesnt' say anything about not giving notice. 

Given that we were never going to be able to give 1 months’ notice on 10th of this month having not had time to secure another tenancy is that legal that they can now insist that regardless of being in the property or not that we will have to pay next month’s rent? - of course its legal that they expect you to stick to the contract. 

It feels a very biased system if that’s the case as they may as well just state we have to give 2 months’ notice. - no, not if that's not in the contract. The one month notice in line with tenancy periods likely IS in the contract / statute. 

Any advice / help would be greatly appreciated.

The issue is
a) misunderstanding the Section 21 notice - it would state that they are giving you notice that they will go to court. So effectively requesting you leave in ~6+ months, NOT in 2 months time. 
b) not remembering the original contract and/or statutory notice periods if you ended up making plans to leave earlier than 6 months. Ideally you'd check your obligations, serve notice and budget for a longer overlap at the point of signing a new rental contract.

Unfortunately they have informed you via the notice and the contract.. 

At this point, your options are
- negotiate an early surrender (threaten that if you lose this rental, you'll stay until evicted by bailiffs); or
- serve your own notice now, terminating 10th July; or
- stay put until bailiffs or until you find another rental with a more convenient start date.