County Court Claim received, parking fine from 2 years ago - drafting a defence

95Rollers

Coupon-mad said:

So what avenues do I have available as a defence then? Would it just be to hone in on the monetary charges themselves? 

Absolutely not. That is not a defence. You'd be going for no grace periods and unclear signs (if it was dark on arrival, add in unlit signs).

This. Plus use pictures and photographs/ videos to evidence this as you'll need to convince someone who's never been there what you saw or couldn't see when you attended that site.  Google Street View allows you to zoom in and capture the exact angles of your approach/ entry. 

Qrbrrbl

I'm not going to be able to get my own pictures unfortunately. The McDonalds in question is 100 miles from me and I'm not going to have the opportunity to visit. I've had a look at streetview for the carpark (oddly enough, the streetview car has actually gone through the carpark so quite good images of the signage, and there are streetview images from both before and after the PCN so can see what signage was present at the time) - unfortunately its a relatively small car park (around 20 spaces) with six signs around the spaces and one at the entrance that all clearly show the 90 minute max stay (despite having significant smaller text underneath).

I'm really not sure where my defence is going to come from at the moment and could use some more guidance.

Coupon-mad

Doesn't Google Streetview show it?  You can even drive in and change the date of the image.

Qrbrrbl

No thats what I mean, theres images from July 2019 and more recent ones and they all show the signage. Clearly enough to make out the big text which is the 90 minute max stay, but not clear enough to make out the small print. 6/7 signs for a small car park seems excessive so I'm not sure I'd be able to use inadequate signage as a defence

Coupon-mad

Was it dark on arrival?

Qrbrrbl

Nope - was after 9am

Coupon-mad

OK, but we all know what a UKPC sign looks like!   Easy to find on Google images and it is obviously not a sign where the alleged contract can be read or agreed, nine feet up.   Please draft something and show us, we'll help.

Qrbrrbl

OK just finalising this now. Focal points will be a) lack of grace period - if I can claim this is too short at 16 minutes? and b) inaccessibility of signs / contract with small text located at around 9ft height.

Presuming that me being a legitimate customer doesnt have much bearing?  Or could you argue that McDonalds as the business there didnt suffer a significant loss and the parking charges are massively disproportionate? I know that used to be a legitimate defence but not sure any more.

A few questions:

How much should I pay attention to the difference in Keeper / Driver? I had always understood that claims are easier to defend by the Keeper and not the Driver but from previous comments here it sounds like at CC stage it makes no meaningful difference?

Within the "as the defendant knows it know it" section how detailed should the description be? Should it go step by step of events? Other than doing a bit of a play by play of the morning I'm not sure what elese to put in here (other than references to a and b above). 

How much should I post here? Will it prejudice things if I post defence in full here? People have mentioned that the parking companies trawl these forums.

What would I need as evidence? Street view images of the signs in question and their location?

Thanks in advance

Fruitcake

If the keeper was not the driver, AND the NTK was not PoFA compliant, then say so in your defence and defend as keeper.

If the keeper was the driver, then defend as driver, since the driver was the only witness at the time and can give an account of what was and what was not seen regards signage in the car park, and inside the cafe.

Be brief but to the point in your defence, Facts and points of law. The narrative of what happened on the day comes later at the witness statement stage in support of your defence.

UKPC signs do not meet the requirements of the BPA CoP. Whilst the free parking time of 90 minutes might be clear and easily seen, the amount of the charge and what happens if the 90 minutes is exceeded will not be.
A parking contract is formed by the signage in the car park. If the TS and Cs cannot be read/are not suitably brought to the driver's attention, then they cannot agree to the terms of the contract.

You should quote the part of the CoP that has been breached, and research and include Lord Denning's "red hand rule".

What happened when you complained to the landowner/cafe manager/CEO? That is always Plan A, and it is never too late to get a landowner cancellation.

Have you checked with the local planning department to see if planning permission was given for ANPR scameras if used, and if advertising consent for signs was approved?
You should also check to see what the permitted free parking time was originally authorised by the council when the cafe was built. Parking companies have a habit of arbitrarily reducing the free permitted parking time in breach of the original planning approval.

The PPC will get to see your defence soon enough, so posting it here (only the parts of the template defence that you have altered) will not matter.

Evidence comes later in the process at the WS/exhibits stage. Yes, use GSV images with dates that bracket the alleged event, but do not include them in your defence.

Le_Kirk

As well as heeding what @Fruitcake stated above, you are right in that "significant loss" is a non-starter.