Am I right to pursue refund/replacement of £900 dishwasher?

Natski

Hi everyone, very long time since I've posted anything on here. I'm looking for some advice please...

Bought a Miele dishwasher 3.5 years ago from Costco for £900. We would normally have got an extended warranty from Domestic & General after the 2 year warranty was up but forgot due to having a baby & no sleep/loss of brain cells for months 😬

It recently started showing a fault code F78 and stopped working. Called out an independent engineer as the Miele approved one had no availability for a few weeks. Engineer said it was beyond economic repair due to:

- failure of the circulation motor

- failure of the heater relay

- evidence of prior leaking into the base plate.

I contacted Costco and asked for them to consider replacing the machine under Consumer Rights Act, as it is not of satisfactory quality and due to level of faults, may have been faulty at purchase. Also made the point about durability, as it's a premium product and would reasonably be expected to last longer than 3.5 years.

Had back and forth with Costco over a couple of weeks, but they basically won't budge on offering £150 'goodwill' gesture. This is despite me setting out clearly the faults with the machine, providing a report from the engineer and demonstrating (in my opinion), how my claim meets the criteria for a partial refund due to a replacement not being possible (as Costco refused to provide one), and also a repair not being possible. 
Costco's last response was to say that their legal advice is that they are only responsible during the manufacturer's warranty period. Which I think is incorrect,  am I right? 

Where we're at now is that we have had a broken machine for a month and need a new one. I think we should buy one, and pursue Costco via small claims court for the partial refund. Any advice/opinions on this? I've suggested a refund of £700 based on cost of the machine against average 20 year's use (as Miele test their machines against this).

To try and cover ourselves,  we also called out a Miele approved engineer who came yesterday and essentially backed the previous engineer report to say the machine is beyond economical repair. He suggested contacting Miele to see if they would offer anything in recompense, even though it's out of warranty. I've emailed them but not expecting much.

Any advice on whether we should continue to pursue Costco would be greatly appreciated. 

Sorry for the pong post.

Thanks 🙂

Aylesbury_Duck

Natski said:

Hi everyone, very long time since I've posted anything on here. I'm looking for some advice please...

Bought a Miele dishwasher 3.5 years ago from Costco for £900. We would normally have got an extended warranty from Domestic & General after the 2 year warranty was up but forgot due to having a baby & no sleep/loss of brain cells for months 😬

It recently started showing a fault code F78 and stopped working. Called out an independent engineer as the Miele approved one had no availability for a few weeks. Engineer said it was beyond economic repair due to:

- failure of the circulation motor

- failure of the heater relay

- evidence of prior leaking into the base plate.

I contacted Costco and asked for them to consider replacing the machine under Consumer Rights Act, as it is not of satisfactory quality and due to level of faults, may have been faulty at purchase. Also made the point about durability, as it's a premium product and would reasonably be expected to last longer than 3.5 years.

Had back and forth with Costco over a couple of weeks, but they basically won't budge on offering £150 'goodwill' gesture. This is despite me setting out clearly the faults with the machine, providing a report from the engineer and demonstrating (in my opinion), how my claim meets the criteria for a partial refund due to a replacement not being possible (as Costco refused to provide one), and also a repair not being possible. 
Costco's last response was to say that their legal advice is that they are only responsible during the manufacturer's warranty period. Which I think is incorrect,  am I right? 

Where we're at now is that we have had a broken machine for a month and need a new one. I think we should buy one, and pursue Costco via small claims court for the partial refund. Any advice/opinions on this? I've suggested a refund of £700 based on cost of the machine against average 20 year's use (as Miele test their machines against this).

To try and cover ourselves,  we also called out a Miele approved engineer who came yesterday and essentially backed the previous engineer report to say the machine is beyond economical repair. He suggested contacting Miele to see if they would offer anything in recompense, even though it's out of warranty. I've emailed them but not expecting much.

Any advice on whether we should continue to pursue Costco would be greatly appreciated. 

Sorry for the pong post.

Thanks 🙂

They're wrong, you're right.  They are responsible.

You've done everything correctly, but I think your valuation is a little on the high side.  I can see where you got £700 from but in reality things don't depreciate linearly, and of course it's more about number of washing cycles than it is about time.  How much would a functioning 3.5 year old model cost you on ebay?  I doubt you'd pay £700.  That said, I think their settlement figure is too low.  Maybe £400 is a reasonable figure, for example, being somewhere between the two figures?  In any case, if they won't budge you have to choose between accepting the £150 or doing as you suggest and pursuing them for more in small claims.

Sandtree

Did your engineers provide you an actual report that identified the cause of the problem? ie why the circulation motor had failed or why there had been leaks? Or was it just an estimate? As the item is over 6 months old its up to you to prove the issue is caused by an inherent issue with the machine rather than it being fair wear & tear or user error/action. 

A refund is entitled to be reduced by the use received from the item prior to its failure... unfortunately the law doesn't stipulate how that use should be calculated. I know with JL for example they count the months you've had it, divide it by 72 (representing the 6 year cap in the statute) and apply that as the discount. Assuming it is exactly 3.5 years old then under that methodology a refund should be around £375

I know CostCo in the US operates as a wholesaler and like Makro membership is for business purposes... in the UK can you shop as a consumer with them? Obviously if the sale was under the guise of a B2B transaction then there are no consumer rights.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Sandtree said:

 As the item is over 6 months old its up to you to prove the issue is caused by an inherent issue with the machine rather than it being fair wear & tear or user error/action. 

Durability comes into play here and beyond reasonable doubt isn't required so on the balance of probability the average person doesn't run their washing machine dishwasher 24 hours a days and a machine the manufacturer claims to last 20 years failing after 3.5 years due to the reasons outlined would very likely to be viewed as the goods not conforming to the contract.

Add to that Costco aren't going to want to spend the time and money defending a claim at all let alone one that they don't have certainty of winning I would suggest the OP simply send the letter before action and Costco will do something. 

Regarding value a second hand machine could have had anything done to it and such their value tends to be low (along with the average person not being able to post such an item so a offer for sale drawing less interest), the value of a professionally refurbished machine would be a more suitable match to check for a value or as per Sandtree lifespan* minus ownership to the point you advise Costco you are exercising your final right to reject (which you should specially specifically state in the letter before action so they can not claim there is any ambiguity as to your intentions).

*I don't agree the lifespan of goods is capped at 6 years, that's just the time you have to take action through small claims, if the lifespan is 20 years then you are looking at £742.50.

If you purchased the machine for a business then of course consumer rights don't apply but if you use the machine at home you purchased as a consumer regardless of any terms Costco may have, if a company doesn't was to engage in B2C transactions it's their responsibility to ensure they don't occur. 

Natski

Thanks both of you for your quick replies.
Yes I know you're right about the £700, we would be prepared to settle at £450-500 and hoped Costco would be willing to negotiate down from the £700 but they're sticking to their £150 without any justification. 
The engineer reports just state the faults, not the cause. Although the Miele engineer said the failure of the circulation motor is a 'communication issue' between the motor and the circuit board. Sailed over my head I'm afraid. But the cost to repair that fault equals the cost of the machine! 

We are consumer customers of Costco, we have membership but not as a business. They offer both types of membership here. 

Natski

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

 As the item is over 6 months old its up to you to prove the issue is caused by an inherent issue with the machine rather than it being fair wear & tear or user error/action. 

Durability comes into play here and beyond reasonable doubt isn't required so on the balance of probability the average person doesn't run their washing machine dishwasher 24 hours a days and a machine the manufacturer claims to last 20 years failing after 3.5 years due to the reasons outlined would very likely to be viewed as the goods not conforming to the contract.

Add to that Costco aren't going to want to spend the time and money defending a claim at all let alone one that they don't have certainty of winning I would suggest the OP simply send the letter before action and Costco will do something. 

Regarding value a second hand machine could have had anything done to it and such their value tends to be low (along with the average person not being able to post such an item so a offer for sale drawing less interest), the value of a professionally refurbished machine would be a more suitable match to check for a value or as per Sandtree lifespan* minus ownership to the point you advise Costco you are exercising your final right to reject (which you should specially state in the letter before action so they can not claim there is any ambiguity as to your intentions).

*I don't agree the lifespan of goods is capped at 6 years, that's just the time you have to take action through small claims, if the lifespan is 20 years then you are looking at £742.50.

If you purchased the machine for a business then of course consumer rights don't apply but if you use the machine at home you purchased as a consumer regardless of any terms Costco may have, if a company doesn't was to engage in B2C transactions it's their responsible to ensure they don't occur. 

Thank you very much for replying. Would you mind explaining more about the 'letter before action' that you suggest I send? Is that the notice that they receive after you complete the online application for the small claims court, or is it a letter that I send myself before starting that process?
If the latter, is there a template letter somewhere you're aware of that I could use please?

Natski

Natski said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

 As the item is over 6 months old its up to you to prove the issue is caused by an inherent issue with the machine rather than it being fair wear & tear or user error/action. 

Durability comes into play here and beyond reasonable doubt isn't required so on the balance of probability the average person doesn't run their washing machine dishwasher 24 hours a days and a machine the manufacturer claims to last 20 years failing after 3.5 years due to the reasons outlined would very likely to be viewed as the goods not conforming to the contract.

Add to that Costco aren't going to want to spend the time and money defending a claim at all let alone one that they don't have certainty of winning I would suggest the OP simply send the letter before action and Costco will do something. 

Regarding value a second hand machine could have had anything done to it and such their value tends to be low (along with the average person not being able to post such an item so a offer for sale drawing less interest), the value of a professionally refurbished machine would be a more suitable match to check for a value or as per Sandtree lifespan* minus ownership to the point you advise Costco you are exercising your final right to reject (which you should specially state in the letter before action so they can not claim there is any ambiguity as to your intentions).

*I don't agree the lifespan of goods is capped at 6 years, that's just the time you have to take action through small claims, if the lifespan is 20 years then you are looking at £742.50.

If you purchased the machine for a business then of course consumer rights don't apply but if you use the machine at home you purchased as a consumer regardless of any terms Costco may have, if a company doesn't was to engage in B2C transactions it's their responsible to ensure they don't occur. 

Thank you very much for replying. Would you mind explaining more about the 'letter before action' that you suggest I send? Is that the notice that they receive after you complete the online application for the small claims court, or is it a letter that I send myself before starting that process?
If the latter, is there a template letter somewhere you're aware of that I could use please?

Sorry ignore me! I've just found template letter on Citizen's advice website 👍🏽

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Natski said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

 As the item is over 6 months old its up to you to prove the issue is caused by an inherent issue with the machine rather than it being fair wear & tear or user error/action. 

Durability comes into play here and beyond reasonable doubt isn't required so on the balance of probability the average person doesn't run their washing machine dishwasher 24 hours a days and a machine the manufacturer claims to last 20 years failing after 3.5 years due to the reasons outlined would very likely to be viewed as the goods not conforming to the contract.

Add to that Costco aren't going to want to spend the time and money defending a claim at all let alone one that they don't have certainty of winning I would suggest the OP simply send the letter before action and Costco will do something. 

Regarding value a second hand machine could have had anything done to it and such their value tends to be low (along with the average person not being able to post such an item so a offer for sale drawing less interest), the value of a professionally refurbished machine would be a more suitable match to check for a value or as per Sandtree lifespan* minus ownership to the point you advise Costco you are exercising your final right to reject (which you should specially state in the letter before action so they can not claim there is any ambiguity as to your intentions).

*I don't agree the lifespan of goods is capped at 6 years, that's just the time you have to take action through small claims, if the lifespan is 20 years then you are looking at £742.50.

If you purchased the machine for a business then of course consumer rights don't apply but if you use the machine at home you purchased as a consumer regardless of any terms Costco may have, if a company doesn't was to engage in B2C transactions it's their responsible to ensure they don't occur. 

Thank you very much for replying. Would you mind explaining more about the 'letter before action' that you suggest I send? Is that the notice that they receive after you complete the online application for the small claims court, or is it a letter that I send myself before starting that process?
If the latter, is there a template letter somewhere you're aware of that I could use please?

The letter before action is a letter to say what you would like them to do with a stated  reasonable timeframe (say 14 or 28 days) otherwise you will take further action via small claims.

It lets the other party know your intentions and allows them the opportunity to resolve the matter without troubling the court process  

You should find templates on Google, it would be best to state "the goods do not conform to the contract in terms of durability" and "that as Costco have failed to agree to offer an appropriate remedy of repair or replacement within a reasonable time you are exercising your final right to reject the goods" It would be best to include the information you have from the inspection and state the amount you expect to receive. If for example you requested £750 and they offered £600 you can of course haggle but would be best accepting their offer to where ever you can get in in-between, the small claims process will not appreciate a case being brought where one party has made a reasonable offer and the other has declined and of course it saves you the stress and trouble of it all. If Costco stick to £150 then hopefully the small claims process would agree that isn't reasonable and award a better amount.  

Jumblebumble

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

 As the item is over 6 months old its up to you to prove the issue is caused by an inherent issue with the machine rather than it being fair wear & tear or user error/action. 

Durability comes into play here and beyond reasonable doubt isn't required so on the balance of probability the average person doesn't run their washing machine dishwasher 24 hours a days and a machine the manufacturer claims to last 20 years failing after 3.5 years due to the reasons outlined would very likely to be viewed as the goods not conforming to the contract.

Add to that Costco aren't going to want to spend the time and money defending a claim at all let alone one that they don't have certainty of winning I would suggest the OP simply send the letter before action and Costco will do something. 

Regarding value a second hand machine could have had anything done to it and such their value tends to be low (along with the average person not being able to post such an item so a offer for sale drawing less interest), the value of a professionally refurbished machine would be a more suitable match to check for a value or as per Sandtree lifespan* minus ownership to the point you advise Costco you are exercising your final right to reject (which you should specially specifically state in the letter before action so they can not claim there is any ambiguity as to your intentions).

*I don't agree the lifespan of goods is capped at 6 years, that's just the time you have to take action through small claims, if the lifespan is 20 years then you are looking at £742.50.

If you purchased the machine for a business then of course consumer rights don't apply but if you use the machine at home you purchased as a consumer regardless of any terms Costco may have, if a company doesn't was to engage in B2C transactions it's their responsibility to ensure they don't occur. 

Would it be fair to say that the expected lifetime of 20 years is not the same as saying that the machine will run for 20 years with out any money being spent on it in repairs / servicing ect and so using it as a preportion for a refund is not realistic?
I would lean towards the view  that 50% as suggested by Sandtree on a 3.5 year old machine is a bit more sensible and fair

zoob

Does CRA2015 even come into play in this case, Costco Wholesale UK is a member only warehouse club and not strictly a retailer

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Jumblebumble said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

 As the item is over 6 months old its up to you to prove the issue is caused by an inherent issue with the machine rather than it being fair wear & tear or user error/action. 

Durability comes into play here and beyond reasonable doubt isn't required so on the balance of probability the average person doesn't run their washing machine dishwasher 24 hours a days and a machine the manufacturer claims to last 20 years failing after 3.5 years due to the reasons outlined would very likely to be viewed as the goods not conforming to the contract.

Add to that Costco aren't going to want to spend the time and money defending a claim at all let alone one that they don't have certainty of winning I would suggest the OP simply send the letter before action and Costco will do something. 

Regarding value a second hand machine could have had anything done to it and such their value tends to be low (along with the average person not being able to post such an item so a offer for sale drawing less interest), the value of a professionally refurbished machine would be a more suitable match to check for a value or as per Sandtree lifespan* minus ownership to the point you advise Costco you are exercising your final right to reject (which you should specially specifically state in the letter before action so they can not claim there is any ambiguity as to your intentions).

*I don't agree the lifespan of goods is capped at 6 years, that's just the time you have to take action through small claims, if the lifespan is 20 years then you are looking at £742.50.

If you purchased the machine for a business then of course consumer rights don't apply but if you use the machine at home you purchased as a consumer regardless of any terms Costco may have, if a company doesn't was to engage in B2C transactions it's their responsibility to ensure they don't occur. 

Would it be fair to say that the expected lifetime of 20 years is not the same as saying that the machine will run for 20 years with out any money being spent on it in repairs / servicing ect and so using it as a preportion for a refund is not realistic?
I would lean towards the view  that 50% as suggested by Sandtree on a 3.5 year old machine is a bit more sensible and fair

I do agree 20 years is a long time, the average life of a dishwasher is around 10 years (from a 2 second Google search so I don't know how accurate that is) and £900 is at the higher end of the pricing spectrum so I would expect it to either have super duper features or be of a better build quality. 

Companies tend to make their offers on the lower side (as they hope the customer will accept and it saves them a few quid), for a letter before action OP can request on the higher side with a view of perhaps being knocked down a bit.

For small claims a well calculated and justifiable value would probably be wise.