Driving without Insurance

MikeDragoon

So guys just looking for some advice.

Here is the story, sold my car which was a Jap import on Thursday 21st April and as it had special insurance they would not transfer it to my Accord, cancelled that insurance, went on comparethemarket and took some out with the co op.

Sunday 24th, just taken my daughter back to her mums, pulled onto my road on the way back and about 600 metres from my house get pulled over by an unmarked police car. Officer said it was coming up with no insurance, I explained I insured it a couple of days ago and go my emails out. Found the right email but we as both saw it said the policy would start on the 3rd May. I had no idea what I had done so was checking my official insurance certificate. I had never checked my emails just marked them as read and took for granted it was all sorted.

The police officer I spoke to, you could tell believed me and I think she was in 2 minds whether to tell me to go home and get some insurance but she went to talk to her partner he came up, said I was going to get towed it was policy etc which would have been embarrassing as my boss co owns the garage that does the recoveries. So I said can I not sort some insurance now as my house was in view, they said that was fine so went on comparethemarket just for speed really and would just accept the cheapest quote. I then realised what I had done, the policy start date option I had taken as the direct debit date, as I try put all my bills around this time at the start of the month as its right after pay day.

Sorted insurance out, showed the officer and I explained how I had messed the dates up on my co op insurance. She said that was fine but we are still going to prosecute you, which was a shock.

It is an IN10, 6points and 300 pound fine.

Obviously take responsibility but it was a genuine mistake, I had sorted insurance but just got confused with what the date option was for.

Is this worth taking to court or just paying the fine and just taking the points? I have had mixed opinions but everyones first words after telling them the story is 'that's harsh'.

The reason I would go to court is that I am a Plant Fitter and drive a van for a living. This not only bumps my companies insurance up which they are concerned about but it basically compromises my job opportunities for the next 5 years. If I chose to change jobs, a lot of places on the job ad or in the interview ask for a clean licence which would more than likely mean I am pretty much stuck in my current job. I have other stuff I would put in a letter to the court like single father, own my own house, money is tight, have my little girl every weekend, ex military, work a lot of hours, pay maintenance, never been in trouble with police, driving since 2004, would explain the mistake and the situation etc but you get the idea.

I mean I can prove there was no logic or motive to have a gap in my insurance and have all documents to support this.

What do you guys think?

Cheers
Mick

soolin

These are the experts on motoring and penalties and it might be worth asking there - just don’t try signing up with a hotmail or Gmail address.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/

However if you got to court you aren’t looking to mitigate the points, all you can do is show the charge is wrong, and since you were driving without insurance I can’t see that working. 

Aretnap

No insurance is a strict liability offence - the fact that you didn't intend to do it or know you were doing it isn't relevant to guilt - so the fact that it was an honest mistake doesn't provide a defence I'm afraid. 

As you've undoubtedly committed the offence, the law requires the court to endorse your licence with at least 6 points. They have no discretion to waive this because of your personal circumstances, so the fact that the points would make your job situation difficult or that you work long hours to support your daughter will make no difference I'm afraid. They CAN waive the endorsement if they find "Special Reasons" to do so, which must mean that there's something unusual about the offence rather than the offender. Common examples of Special Reasons are where you were mislead about the car's insurance situation by someone you had good reason to trust, or if you only drove because of a genuine emergency. It would be a very generous court indeed which found special reasons because you'd made a mistake filling in the form, especially since you didn't check any if the paperwork afterwards.

I agree it's harsh, but also don't see that you have much to gain by taking it to court - almost certainly you would just end up with the same number of points but a larger fine. 

MikeDragoon

I understand, will try that site6

Yeah I thought that might be the case just have to accept it and pay it.

I know people sometimes are shown leniency as my friend in 2010 got caught speeding again on his bike, was going to be going onto 12 points and a 6 month ban, he wrote the caught a letter apologising and they gave him a one day ban and a 600 or 700 quid fine but we were in the military then so might have also helped him.

soolin

MikeDragoon said:

I understand, will try that site6

Yeah I thought that might be the case just have to accept it and pay it.

I know people sometimes are shown leniency as my friend in 2010 got caught speeding again on his bike, was going to be going onto 12 points and a 6 month ban, he wrote the caught a letter apologising and they gave him a one day ban and a 600 or 700 quid fine but we were in the military then so might have also helped him.

You might want to get your mate to post on the other site about that (I think they have a discussion bit) as that would be something they would love as it is unheard of. Again speeding is an absolute offence, if he was guilty then the magistrates cannot basically ‘let him off’ they can opt for a different penalty but only within the guidelines. There is an option sometimes used for a ban rather than points to avoid a totting ban , but I suspect your mate may have rather over stated either his speed or the actual circumstances if he got away with a single day ban. 

Manxman_in_exile

MikeDragoon said:

I understand, will try that site6

Yeah I thought that might be the case just have to accept it and pay it.

I know people sometimes are shown leniency as my friend in 2010 got caught speeding again on his bike, was going to be going onto 12 points and a 6 month ban, he wrote the caught a letter apologising and they gave him a one day ban and a 600 or 700 quid fine but we were in the military then so might have also helped him.

If you are facing a "totting up" ban because you've hit 12 points, it's possible to make what's called an "exceptional hardship" plea in an attempt to avoid the ban.  But the hardship has to be truly "exceptional" (eg losing your job because of a ban would NOT be exceptional) and it helps a lot if the hardship will be suffered by others and not you.

But you won't end up on 12 points, so you won't be facing a totting ban, so you can't plead exceptional hardship.

(I tend to agree with @soolin that you probably don't know all the details of your mate's case... )

Grumpy_chap

MikeDragoon said:

So guys just looking for some advice.

Here is the story, sold my car which was a Jap import on Thursday 21st April and as it had special insurance they would not transfer it to my Accord, cancelled that insurance, went on comparethemarket and took some out with the co op.

Sunday 24th, just taken my daughter back to her mums, pulled onto my road on the way back and about 600 metres from my house get pulled over by an unmarked police car. Officer said it was coming up with no insurance, I explained I insured it a couple of days ago and go my emails out. Found the right email but we as both saw it said the policy would start on the 3rd May. I had no idea what I had done so was checking my official insurance certificate. I had never checked my emails just marked them as read and took for granted it was all sorted.

The police officer I spoke to, you could tell believed me and I think she was in 2 minds whether to tell me to go home and get some insurance but she went to talk to her partner he came up, said I was going to get towed it was policy etc which would have been embarrassing as my boss co owns the garage that does the recoveries. So I said can I not sort some insurance now as my house was in view, they said that was fine so went on comparethemarket just for speed really and would just accept the cheapest quote. I then realised what I had done, the policy start date option I had taken as the direct debit date, as I try put all my bills around this time at the start of the month as its right after pay day.

Sorted insurance out, showed the officer and I explained how I had messed the dates up on my co op insurance. She said that was fine but we are still going to prosecute you, which was a shock.

It is an IN10, 6points and 300 pound fine.

Obviously take responsibility but it was a genuine mistake, I had sorted insurance but just got confused with what the date option was for.

Is this worth taking to court or just paying the fine and just taking the points? I have had mixed opinions but everyones first words after telling them the story is 'that's harsh'.

The reason I would go to court is that I am a Plant Fitter and drive a van for a living. This not only bumps my companies insurance up which they are concerned about but it basically compromises my job opportunities for the next 5 years. If I chose to change jobs, a lot of places on the job ad or in the interview ask for a clean licence which would more than likely mean I am pretty much stuck in my current job. I have other stuff I would put in a letter to the court like single father, own my own house, money is tight, have my little girl every weekend, ex military, work a lot of hours, pay maintenance, never been in trouble with police, driving since 2004, would explain the mistake and the situation etc but you get the idea.

I mean I can prove there was no logic or motive to have a gap in my insurance and have all documents to support this.

What do you guys think?

Cheers
Mick

As others said, you need more definitive advice, particularly if you decide to challenge.  Visit peepipoo but you may then also need professional (paid for) legal advice.

Your friends say this was "a bit harsh" but the opposite view that some might take was that leniency was already shown by the Police Office on the day by not impounding the car and allowing you to arrange insurance immediately.

It does sound like you made a genuine mistake but some points and a fine are quite a low level of impact compared to possible outcomes had you been in a collision in those few days you would have erroneously had no insurance.

I am not sure on the process if you went to court but, AIUI, the first thing you need to do is plead and you'd have to plead "guilty".  Then you'd be trying to put some mitigation about the circumstances and seeking greater leniency than you have already benefitted from.  You need to weigh up the likelihood of gaining a less severe penalty against the risk of a more severe penalty and the costs of attending the court.

Aretnap

Magistrates do have the option of imposing a ban (of any length) as an alternative to points. The ban would generally be seen as a more severe penalty than points, but some people would certainly see a very short ban as less severe than 6 points which would put you half way towards a 6 month ban.

A short ban as an alternative to points can also be used, in theory, to get around a totting ban for a driver who would otherwise hit 12 points. The magistrates have explicit guidelines NOT to do this, however they do not HAVE to follow the guidelines if they think that doing so would be contrary to the interests of justice. If they do deviate from the guidelines they must state their reasons in open court, and potentially their reasoning can be appealed. So it's not impossible that the OP's friend persuaded a court somewhere to give him a 1 day ban rather than a totting ban, but it would be unusual, and he must have been lucky to find such generous magistrates.

I have heard (via Pepipoo actually) of someone getting a 1 day ban for a no insurance offence that clearly wasn't their fault. I can't remember the details, but ISTR it was more than a case of not filling in the form properly then not checking the confirmation. The other problem from the OP's perspective is that he's primarily worried about the effect of a driving licence endorsement on his insurance and employment. A 1 day ban would still come with an endorsement which would have to be declared to both insurers and employers for 5 years. So even if he was lucky enough to find a bench willing to consider doing this, it's not obvious that it would actually help him very much. 

TooManyPoints

You only realistic option you have is to decline the fixed penalty, allow the matter to go to court, and ask for a hearing in the normal Magistrates' Court (instead of allowing your case to be dealt with under the "Single Justice" procedure). At that hearing you would have to plead guilty and ask the court to find that there are "Special Reasons not to Endorse" your driving record (and hence impose no points or disqualification). There would still be a conviction recorded against you, which you would have to declare, and the chances of success, in the circumstances you describe are next to zero. It may cost you a little more than the £300 fixed penalty you have been offered. Unless the court decides to impose either an absolute or a conditional discharge (which is very unlikely unless your "Special Reasons" argument is accepted) you will pay an income related fine, a "Victim Surcharge" and prosecution costs of £85. However, the court may be a little lenient with that in view of the circumstances. What they cannot be lenient with (again, unless your Special Reasons argument succeeds) is the points. Six is the statutory minimum and they cannot go below that.

Aretnap

TooManyPoints said:

You only realistic option you have is to decline the fixed penalty, allow the matter to go to court, and ask for a hearing in the normal Magistrates' Court (instead of allowing your case to be dealt with under the "Single Justice" procedure). At that hearing you would have to plead guilty and ask the court to find that there are "Special Reasons not to Endorse" your driving record (and hence impose no points or disqualification). There would still be a conviction recorded against you, which you would have to declare, and the chances of success, in the circumstances you describe are next to zero. It may cost you a little more than the £300 fixed penalty you have been offered. Unless the court decides to impose either an absolute or a conditional discharge (which is very unlikely unless your "Special Reasons" argument is accepted) you will pay an income related fine, a "Victim Surcharge" and prosecution costs of £85. However, the court may be a little lenient with that in view of the circumstances. What they cannot be lenient with (again, unless your Special Reasons argument succeeds) is the points. Six is the statutory minimum and they cannot go below that.

As a minor quibble, if the OP did succeed in a special reasons argument and got no endorsement and an absolute discharge, under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act the conviction would become spent immediately and he would not have to declare it to insurers or prospective employers. Even if the court gave him a small fine or a conditional discharge instead of an absolute discharge, the conviction would become spent much more quickly than a typical driving conviction and he would not have to declare it for the full five years that insurers typically ask about.

I agree that the chances of it happening are vanishingly small however, so it's a largely academic point.

Thrugelmir

MikeDragoon said:

Here is the story, sold my car which was a Jap import on Thursday 21st April and as it had special insurance they would not transfer it to my Accord, cancelled that insurance, went on comparethemarket and took some out with the co op.

Cutting to the chase. What mitigating circumstances could you tell the court for not starting the new insurance immediately. As surely that's the answer to the question you would have been posed.