Advice on who is liable

GDB2222

stuart45 said:

A lot of.people.make the mistake of thinking that a stud wall can't be load bearing. There are some called Trussed partitions that can take a load from above without a wall below, or even the joists from the floor below.
An SE can make a mistake, as can anyone. I've come across things like them getting the original thickness and type of construction wrong.
You can't always know what's underneath until the work starts and things get opened up.

This is the point. The SE is only liable if he was negligent. It may not have been practical to open up the wall enough to check whether it was load bearing or required for bracing. 

I would certainly want to hear his side of the story. 

In the meantime, what does the op do with the steel? 

theonlywayisup

Bendy_House said:

Doozergirl said:

Bendy_House said:

Whilst the SE is the 'expert' here, I think it's very clear from what Baby has told us that this stud wall served no structural purpose; it was only a partition. The SE made a mistake. They assumed too much. They seemingly did not check. They did not do a thorough job.

I suspect the SE's suggestion to check it over with the BCO - in most cases they are also 'experts' - was probably not so much to check WHETHER it was required, but to check that the BCO was 'happy' with the changes - they were were on board with this move, and wouldn't raise it as an issue.

I mean, if the ceiling joists weren't even sitting on the top of this stud wall, then that's pretty conclusive. (I'm guessing that the lath was sandwiched between them?!)

So, on this discovery, the SE wasn't so much saying "I dunno - ask the BCO", but "Hmm, it ain't structural after all - check with the BCO it's ok to proceed on this basis."

Imo, the SE did not properly carry out the job for which they were tasked, and should have OFFERED to cover the cost of the spare steel.

No.  The structural engineer IS an expert. No need for putting the word into quotes.  A chartered SE is a protected title.  

The building control officer is categorically not an expert on structural engineering.  They are an expert on the building regulation documents and totally rely on the advice of SEs.

The OP has questioned a fully qualified expert and apparently got back up from a BCO after the event who has taken the view that they can get away without it.   The BCO has looked and not calculated, the SE has calculated. 

The OP has got what they wanted.  No steel.  If I were minded the same way, I'd see that as a bonus.  I'm not minded the same way so I'd have put the steel in regardless because I know who the expert is.  I would not be trying to get money out of someone who hasn't been negligent and is trying to do their job.  

I am not an expert either, because I am not a qualified SE, but I do understand the hierarchy.  I'm not trying to state something as categorical that I know nothing about here.  

As an example of what you are stating is not structural because it has nothing resting on it - the gable wall of some houses may not have anything at all resting on them in terms of joists, not even the rafters, but if you took the wall out, the whole building would come down with a significant gust of wind.  They brace the walls connecting to them.  They are very much structural.  

Doozer, this is an internal stud wall with nothing resting on it. The house ain't going to fall down.

I think it's safe to assume that the SE assumed that it DID support the joists above. This mattered a lot to the overall alterations, as the presence of this steel was going to affect the ceiling height, or perhaps leave a boxed-in steel, neither of which are remotely desirable. Knowing this, I think there was a greater onus on this SE to investigate properly - it mattered, beyond mere cost.

The SE almost certainly made an error. I don't think clients should have to pay for their errors.

Bendy, it 'ain't going to fall down' is just wrong.  It may be a racking wall.  Without looking at the calcs it is impossible for anyone unqualified as an SE to state it isn't needed.  A racking wall appears to do nothing in most situations but it is vitally important if that's what it is. 

Bendy_House

I do get that, Doozer. And of course things do happen that cannot be foreseen, so it would be unfair to always try and claim someone is always liable. And I don't.

I'm going by the info provided by the OP. "When he did the site visit we did challenge why we needed a steel for where the partition wall was as it was made of plasterboard, was hollow and this wasn’t load bearing. But he was adamant that it was supporting the roof rafters.
We proceeded as advised and purchased 3 steels. Come the day of knocking down the wall, it was pretty apparent that the rafters were not resting on the partition wall and thus unlikely to need the support of the steel. So again we queried with our structural engineer why we needed the 3rd steel placed where the partition wall was. The reason we challenged in the first place was because having the 3rd steel would have also reduced the ceiling height."

Had Baby not been so switched on, then they'd almost certainly have had to live with an unnecessary reduced-height ceiling; it doesn't sound as tho' the SE was about to go "Oops, my bad".

That wall was coming down anyway - how much work would it have been to knock a bit of plaster off for a peep-hole? To determine whether a complete extra steel was required?

It's a grey area, certainly, but in this incident I think that the SE was lax at best, and I suspect many others would have been more conscientious. The consequences of not carrying out this potentially-small extra level of investigation would really have been quite significant to the client; a few extra £undred, and a lower ceiling.

FreeBear

GDB2222 said: In the meantime, what does the op do with the steel? 

At the moment, there is a shortage of steel which is pushing the price up on an almost daily basis. The supplier may well accept the steel being returned, perhaps for a small restocking fee. Failing that, ebay.

stuart45

Or keep it for a year as an investment.

Bendy_House

theonlywayisup said:

Bendy, it 'ain't going to fall down' is just wrong.  It may be a racking wall.  Without looking at the calcs it is impossible for anyone unqualified as an SE to state it isn't needed.  A racking wall appears to do nothing in most situations but it is vitally important if that's what it is. 

My "it ain't going to fall down" comment was obviously flippant.

But, c'mon, bringing in this wall as potentially being a 'racking' jobbie is a red heron (soz, refers to an old thread). I think it's pretty clear from the OP's description that the purpose of this extra steel would have been to support the upper floor, and - when it was discovered that the joists above did not make contact with the stud wall - both the SE and BCO accepted it wasn't needed. There was no suggestion that the house could have parallelogrammed from its omission.

Racking ma botty. :-)

Doozergirl

Bendy, without wanting to be disrespectful to the OP, you're taking the word of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about over that of a structural engineer and holding it up as gospel.  

You don't have a clue, they don't have a clue.  If it was really that obvious then the structural engineer wouldn't have done it at all.    

You cannot make that call.  

Renovation work is an art more than a science sometimes.  I could quote on a project and before prices went nuts we could get it pretty bang on with the total but there were always swings and roundabouts on how we thought the budget would breakdown because it never goes to plan.   There are always changes to the way you think things will go.  Always.  

GDB2222

FreeBear said:

GDB2222 said: In the meantime, what does the op do with the steel? 

At the moment, there is a shortage of steel which is pushing the price up on an almost daily basis. The supplier may well accept the steel being returned, perhaps for a small restocking fee. Failing that, ebay.

Don’t they get cut to size for specific jobs?

koalakoala

I would have erred on the side of caution and had it installed !

FreeBear

GDB2222 said:

FreeBear said:

GDB2222 said: In the meantime, what does the op do with the steel? 

At the moment, there is a shortage of steel which is pushing the price up on an almost daily basis. The supplier may well accept the steel being returned, perhaps for a small restocking fee. Failing that, ebay.

Don’t they get cut to size for specific jobs?

Yes, but they can always be cut down for smaller jobs. Saves having to cut a full length.