PIP Review

Life__Goes__On

poppy12345 said:

I disagree. I can't see how recording the assessment could be helpful at all. You can't use it in a Tribunal unless it's professionally transcribed.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjy5PvFnsv3AhVUoVwKHUD3CWcQFnoECAYQAQ&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d121131ed915d3191e71dbd/CPIP_2310_2018-00.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3YFgx2Jugm3siQOyhvcty4

Has the upper tribunal decision (JB v SSWP (PIP) 2019) been reversed?

" 28.  The Appellant also included with the letter of 3 January 2018 a 21-page handwritten transcript of the recording. He explained that “as I am unfamiliar with the format of writing a transcript, I have wrote it word for word as per the recording”). On 9 January 2018 a copy of this transcript was issued to the parties as pp.203a-203x of the appeal bundle. A registrar issued directions on 16 January 2018, requiring the DWP – if it did not accept the transcript reflected what was said at the assessment – to “provide a further submission outlining any errors etc within 21 days”. There was no response from the DWP."
 

The appellant wrote the transcript  thierself,  
The DWP  had 21 days from the registrar informing them if the DWP had found any errors.

As in thus case the Upper Tribunal accepted a claimant handwritten transcript. 

Spoonie_Turtle

Life__Goes__On said:

poppy12345 said:

I disagree. I can't see how recording the assessment could be helpful at all. You can't use it in a Tribunal unless it's professionally transcribed.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjy5PvFnsv3AhVUoVwKHUD3CWcQFnoECAYQAQ&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d121131ed915d3191e71dbd/CPIP_2310_2018-00.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3YFgx2Jugm3siQOyhvcty4

Has the upper tribunal decision (JB v SSWP (PIP) 2019) been reversed?

" 28.  The Appellant also included with the letter of 3 January 2018 a 21-page handwritten transcript of the recording. He explained that “as I am unfamiliar with the format of writing a transcript, I have wrote it word for word as per the recording”). On 9 January 2018 a copy of this transcript was issued to the parties as pp.203a-203x of the appeal bundle. A registrar issued directions on 16 January 2018, requiring the DWP – if it did not accept the transcript reflected what was said at the assessment – to “provide a further submission outlining any errors etc within 21 days”. There was no response from the DWP."
 

The appellant wrote the transcript  thierself,  
The DWP  had 21 days from the registrar informing them if the DWP had found any errors.

As in thus case the Upper Tribunal accepted a claimant handwritten transcript. 

The context of that being:

"36. So far as relevance is concerned, the evidence must be directly or indirectly probative of a material fact. Given, as we have seen, that the decision-maker’s response to the appeal was largely based on the accuracy of the HCP assessment, and the Appellant’s grounds of appeal were almost exclusively based on a challenge to that report, it is difficult to see the transcript of the recording as anything other than relevant to the issues the FTT had to determine."


We tend to advise people to base their MRs and appeals on consideration of the descriptors rather than on disputing the HCP's account of the assessment (i.e. the report), in which case a recording would be less relevant.

[People are free to ensure their assessments are recorded, of course - as I previously mentioned, they may be useful if a complaint is necessary.  It might also prevent the HCP from being abusive or asking inappropriate questions.  It just may not necessarily help someone get the right decision - I don't keep up with all the case law but not one of the many judgement I've read prior to the one you've just linked to has mentioned recordings.]

calcotti

Life__Goes__On said:..The tribunals I have had all came down to who they believed most was I lying on my form, or had the assessor, both couldn't be truthful.

In all cases they believed that I was the truthful one.

I think that indicates why worrying about recording assessments isn't terribly important. Tribunals need little persuading that assessments are poor and often inaccurate. They also know that even when accurate they are only a snapshot. That's why so many tribunal decisions refer to having relied on the evidence if the claimant.

Life__Goes__On

Spoonie_Turtle said:

We tend to advise people to base their MRs and appeals on consideration of the descriptors rather than on disputing the HCP's account of the assessment (i.e. the report), in which case a recording would be less relevant.

I agree overall that's the best advice.
You will have far more knowledge of this than myself, but many  I would have thought have to go to appeal because the PIP form was filled out "incorrectly"  They write about what is wrong with them, rather than how that affects them according to the points score.

Spoonie_Turtle said:

[People are free to ensure their assessments are recorded, of course - as I previously mentioned, they may be useful if a complaint is necessary.  It might also prevent the HCP from being abusive or asking inappropriate questions.  It just may not necessarily help someone get the right decision -

I agree with that also, Although though a joke,  I was making a point that I feel (maybe wrongly)  that if a assessor  knows that there is a recording, then they are more likely to be honest in what the claimant has told them.
That doesn't mean the assessor has to or will believe someone in what they are told.

Spoonie_Turtle said:

I don't keep up with all the case law but not one of the many judgement I've read prior to the one you've just linked to has mentioned recordings.]

Hopefully that will help someone at some point.

Alice_Holt

It's important to remember that about 75% of PIP appeals succeed at tribunal.
Tribunal panels are very thorough and are careful to get a full picture from the claimant.
Their verbal evidence is often crucial for the decision.

A well written PIP form, and a consistent MR / submission, (and possibly previous PIP award ) is far more helpful than any recorded assessment (assuming it can be accepted as evidence by a tribunal).

    

Life__Goes__On

Alice_Holt said:

A well written PIP form, and a consistent MR / submission, (and possibly previous PIP award ) is far more helpful than any recorded assessment
    

They are not mutually exclusive, you can all of the above.

Life__Goes__On

One issue I never addressed about recordings that doesn't relate to the appeal itself.

Some people find  assessments very hard and stressful. they come out and totally forget what they have said.
They read the "assessment"  and start doubting theirselfs on what they would have said.
Thinking as it's in black and white they must have said it, or it would be written down.
Even of the recording is never used at a tribunal, it could give that person  peace of mind knowing they hadn't screwed up the assessment.


PS I see the use of the thanks button is still used in the same old way on here,