Amazon Closed my Account

diystarter7

As a buyer, I find Amazon, 100% excellent.

Ergates

Gavin83 said:

If you 'buy' digital media on Amazon Prime and then decide to stop paying the monthly fee do you lose access to what you've bought? If the answer is yes (which I suspect it is) then it appears to me to be more of a long term rental than any sort of ownership agreement. The price compared to physical media seems irrelevant although it does raise the question of why people don't buy the physical version if the prices are so similar.

I'm also not really sure how it would work from Amazons perspective. Are people suggesting that Amazon should provide lifetime access to anyone who buys any content, even without the subscription being paid and they've no right to ever remove any content as the customer effectively owns that product? Maybe the answer is Amazon provides the opportunity to download that media, although that does go against the streaming idea somewhat.

If this went to court I suspect Amazon would win, although I can't really see anyone wanting to take on Amazons legal team. 

It does *sound* like a long (or short) term rental - but Amazon most definitely and unambiguously tell you you're *buying* it.  People generally buy the digital version for convenience - especially so when it comes to books (as there is no realistic means to copy physical book)

To be blunt - I don't really care how it would work from Amazon's perspective.    They're the ones who decided to go into selling digital media.  They're the ones who have profited massively from selling it.  They're the ones who should have to jump through hoops to make sure the market is fair to consumers.

A simple change might be:  Whilst amazon can block your account from future purchases, they're not allowed to close your account unless they can prove you've engaged in something criminal  (fraud, threatening staff members, etc).   They don't want to do business with you any more?  Tough, they shouldn't have sold you digital content then, that's their problem now.

Ergates

Undervalued said:

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

Eeeyan88 said:

Hi there, did you ever get a resolution to this? I just had my account closed too... Apparently because I have "consistently returned items which are not what I ordered".

I have only ever returned two items to Amazon in my life... After being a customer for 15+ years and spending thousands every year. Most recently it was a set of ear buds which wouldn't charge, after trying to resolve the issue with tech support my only option was to return. Amazon claimed the item has been tampered with however refused to provide any supporting evidence, or to detail the claim of consistently returning wrong items.

I am livid as I have loads of digital media on my prime account which I have now lost, and their "appeal process" seems to just mean getting sent the same generic email over and over again.

Leaving aside the digital media aspect, any company has the right to decline further business from any customer (as long as it is not of the grounds of race, religion etc). The validity (or otherwise) of their reason is irrelevant as they don't have to give one or even have a reason.

I am sure at some point there will be a legal test case about what then happens to the former customer's "right" to access digital media to which they were entitled. As far as I know this hasn't happened in the UK as yet. Personally I only "rent" movies online, partly as I seldom want to watch the same movie repeatedly. I rarely buy digital books on Kindle or similar. I seem to remember that it was possible to make a pdf from the couple of reference books I did "buy" and have done so with the one that is still relevant to me for exactly this reason.

This whole area feels like a massive test case waiting to happen.   For all that Amazon say that we're not buying these digital "goods" we're paying for a license to access them (or however it's worded), they're not really treating the transaction that way. 

For instance, the digital versions aren't notably cheaper (for in print books/films), they're listed next to the physical products (search for a book and "Kindle edition" is just listed there next to the paperback/hardback editions) and there are no obvious warnings on purchase page that Amazon can decide to remove access to things you've paid for at a later date.   It's there in the small print if you dig into it - but Amazon know full well that people don't' do that.

The very fact that a company can "sell" you the rights to watch a film as many times as you like, but 5 minutes later arbitrarily decide to close your account and cut off access to all the digital content you've "bought" without any recourse to appeal the process is more than a little concerning.   Doubly so when the reasons for Amazon closing peoples accounts very often seem to *not* be in response to alleged (or proved) fraud (or other obviously "bad" behaviour).  For instance, people having their accounts closed for returning "too many" items.

To me this is something that whilst currently legal probably shouldn't be.

I agree and that is why I will only "buy" digital media where it is possible to download a copy which can be viewed entirely offline. Rental and PPV is fine unless you happen to be cut off during the fairly short window in which you can view the content.

I don't know how otherwise you would control this. Maybe an entitlement to refund, less say 20% for each year that has elapsed since buying? So, after five years no refund.

The reason I say that is because of the Financial Ombudsman's approach if a bank messes up your ISA application and you lose the allowance for that tax year. If it is entirely the bank's fault they award you five years worth of tax that is paid on an equivalent non ISA investment. Apparently that is the average length of time money is left in an ISA account but still little compensation if you were intending to have invested for far longer.

Ban Amazon from withdrawing access to purchased digital media - unless they can prove you've committed some offense against them.  "We don't want this person as a customer any more" isn't a good enough reason.

BT_Broederbund

Ectophile said:

BT_Broederbund said:

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

Eeeyan88 said:

Hi there, did you ever get a resolution to this? I just had my account closed too... Apparently because I have "consistently returned items which are not what I ordered".

I have only ever returned two items to Amazon in my life... After being a customer for 15+ years and spending thousands every year. Most recently it was a set of ear buds which wouldn't charge, after trying to resolve the issue with tech support my only option was to return. Amazon claimed the item has been tampered with however refused to provide any supporting evidence, or to detail the claim of consistently returning wrong items.

I am livid as I have loads of digital media on my prime account which I have now lost, and their "appeal process" seems to just mean getting sent the same generic email over and over again.

Leaving aside the digital media aspect, any company has the right to decline further business from any customer (as long as it is not of the grounds of race, religion etc). The validity (or otherwise) of their reason is irrelevant as they don't have to give one or even have a reason.

I am sure at some point there will be a legal test case about what then happens to the former customer's "right" to access digital media to which they were entitled. As far as I know this hasn't happened in the UK as yet. Personally I only "rent" movies online, partly as I seldom want to watch the same movie repeatedly. I rarely buy digital books on Kindle or similar. I seem to remember that it was possible to make a pdf from the couple of reference books I did "buy" and have done so with the one that is still relevant to me for exactly this reason.

This whole area feels like a massive test case waiting to happen.   For all that Amazon say that we're not buying these digital "goods" we're paying for a license to access them (or however it's worded), they're not really treating the transaction that way. 

For instance, the digital versions aren't notably cheaper (for in print books/films), they're listed next to the physical products (search for a book and "Kindle edition" is just listed there next to the paperback/hardback editions) and there are no obvious warnings on purchase page that Amazon can decide to remove access to things you've paid for at a later date.   It's there in the small print if you dig into it - but Amazon know full well that people don't' do that.

The very fact that a company can "sell" you the rights to watch a film as many times as you like, but 5 minutes later arbitrarily decide to close your account and cut off access to all the digital content you've "bought" without any recourse to appeal the process is more than a little concerning.   Doubly so when the reasons for Amazon closing peoples accounts very often seem to *not* be in response to alleged (or proved) fraud (or other obviously "bad" behaviour).  For instance, people having their accounts closed for returning "too many" items.

To me this is something that whilst currently legal probably shouldn't be.

Welcome to the 20th century.

Every piece of media you've ever bought was on the terms of you having a revocable licence to consume said media.

All those CDs, DVDs, tapes, vinyls, etc were all just media and the crucial part was the licence, which was revokable. 

In theory, you would be infringing copyright if you consumed the media without permission but in practice it wasn't enforcable in any way, shape or form.

Now it is and it's not nice, but it is legal.

The answer is to stop buying content you won't have control over, such as digital content.

Where does that idea come from? If you buy something on physical media, you own that one copy. You can use it as often as you like, or sell it, or give it away. At no point do you have to agree to any licence to use it. So there's nothing to revoke.

You own a licence to listen to the music or a license to watch the movie or a licence to play the game, you don't "own" the music or movie or game.  The licence can be revoked at any time.

Remember "All rights reserved?"

What on earth did you think it meant?

Undervalued

BT_Broederbund said:

Ectophile said:

BT_Broederbund said:

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

Eeeyan88 said:

Hi there, did you ever get a resolution to this? I just had my account closed too... Apparently because I have "consistently returned items which are not what I ordered".

I have only ever returned two items to Amazon in my life... After being a customer for 15+ years and spending thousands every year. Most recently it was a set of ear buds which wouldn't charge, after trying to resolve the issue with tech support my only option was to return. Amazon claimed the item has been tampered with however refused to provide any supporting evidence, or to detail the claim of consistently returning wrong items.

I am livid as I have loads of digital media on my prime account which I have now lost, and their "appeal process" seems to just mean getting sent the same generic email over and over again.

Leaving aside the digital media aspect, any company has the right to decline further business from any customer (as long as it is not of the grounds of race, religion etc). The validity (or otherwise) of their reason is irrelevant as they don't have to give one or even have a reason.

I am sure at some point there will be a legal test case about what then happens to the former customer's "right" to access digital media to which they were entitled. As far as I know this hasn't happened in the UK as yet. Personally I only "rent" movies online, partly as I seldom want to watch the same movie repeatedly. I rarely buy digital books on Kindle or similar. I seem to remember that it was possible to make a pdf from the couple of reference books I did "buy" and have done so with the one that is still relevant to me for exactly this reason.

This whole area feels like a massive test case waiting to happen.   For all that Amazon say that we're not buying these digital "goods" we're paying for a license to access them (or however it's worded), they're not really treating the transaction that way. 

For instance, the digital versions aren't notably cheaper (for in print books/films), they're listed next to the physical products (search for a book and "Kindle edition" is just listed there next to the paperback/hardback editions) and there are no obvious warnings on purchase page that Amazon can decide to remove access to things you've paid for at a later date.   It's there in the small print if you dig into it - but Amazon know full well that people don't' do that.

The very fact that a company can "sell" you the rights to watch a film as many times as you like, but 5 minutes later arbitrarily decide to close your account and cut off access to all the digital content you've "bought" without any recourse to appeal the process is more than a little concerning.   Doubly so when the reasons for Amazon closing peoples accounts very often seem to *not* be in response to alleged (or proved) fraud (or other obviously "bad" behaviour).  For instance, people having their accounts closed for returning "too many" items.

To me this is something that whilst currently legal probably shouldn't be.

Welcome to the 20th century.

Every piece of media you've ever bought was on the terms of you having a revocable licence to consume said media.

All those CDs, DVDs, tapes, vinyls, etc were all just media and the crucial part was the licence, which was revokable. 

In theory, you would be infringing copyright if you consumed the media without permission but in practice it wasn't enforcable in any way, shape or form.

Now it is and it's not nice, but it is legal.

The answer is to stop buying content you won't have control over, such as digital content.

Where does that idea come from? If you buy something on physical media, you own that one copy. You can use it as often as you like, or sell it, or give it away. At no point do you have to agree to any licence to use it. So there's nothing to revoke.

You own a licence to listen to the music or a license to watch the movie or a licence to play the game, you don't "own" the music or movie or game.  The licence can be revoked at any time.

Remember "All rights reserved?"

What on earth did you think it meant?

Exactly, that was true even back in the days of vinyl records, cassette tapes etc. Obviously though, once you have got the physical media it is virtually impossible for the copyright holder to police your private use of it but that is another matter. 

DB1904

TELLIT01 said:

Refund on  the gift card balance could be 'interesting' as the OP wouldn't have been the purchaser of the card or cards in the first place.  Any refund should go to the purchaser.

They may have been credited the amount on a gift card as a refund. 

Ectophile

BT_Broederbund said:

Ectophile said:

BT_Broederbund said:

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

Eeeyan88 said:

Hi there, did you ever get a resolution to this? I just had my account closed too... Apparently because I have "consistently returned items which are not what I ordered".

I have only ever returned two items to Amazon in my life... After being a customer for 15+ years and spending thousands every year. Most recently it was a set of ear buds which wouldn't charge, after trying to resolve the issue with tech support my only option was to return. Amazon claimed the item has been tampered with however refused to provide any supporting evidence, or to detail the claim of consistently returning wrong items.

I am livid as I have loads of digital media on my prime account which I have now lost, and their "appeal process" seems to just mean getting sent the same generic email over and over again.

Leaving aside the digital media aspect, any company has the right to decline further business from any customer (as long as it is not of the grounds of race, religion etc). The validity (or otherwise) of their reason is irrelevant as they don't have to give one or even have a reason.

I am sure at some point there will be a legal test case about what then happens to the former customer's "right" to access digital media to which they were entitled. As far as I know this hasn't happened in the UK as yet. Personally I only "rent" movies online, partly as I seldom want to watch the same movie repeatedly. I rarely buy digital books on Kindle or similar. I seem to remember that it was possible to make a pdf from the couple of reference books I did "buy" and have done so with the one that is still relevant to me for exactly this reason.

This whole area feels like a massive test case waiting to happen.   For all that Amazon say that we're not buying these digital "goods" we're paying for a license to access them (or however it's worded), they're not really treating the transaction that way. 

For instance, the digital versions aren't notably cheaper (for in print books/films), they're listed next to the physical products (search for a book and "Kindle edition" is just listed there next to the paperback/hardback editions) and there are no obvious warnings on purchase page that Amazon can decide to remove access to things you've paid for at a later date.   It's there in the small print if you dig into it - but Amazon know full well that people don't' do that.

The very fact that a company can "sell" you the rights to watch a film as many times as you like, but 5 minutes later arbitrarily decide to close your account and cut off access to all the digital content you've "bought" without any recourse to appeal the process is more than a little concerning.   Doubly so when the reasons for Amazon closing peoples accounts very often seem to *not* be in response to alleged (or proved) fraud (or other obviously "bad" behaviour).  For instance, people having their accounts closed for returning "too many" items.

To me this is something that whilst currently legal probably shouldn't be.

Welcome to the 20th century.

Every piece of media you've ever bought was on the terms of you having a revocable licence to consume said media.

All those CDs, DVDs, tapes, vinyls, etc were all just media and the crucial part was the licence, which was revokable. 

In theory, you would be infringing copyright if you consumed the media without permission but in practice it wasn't enforcable in any way, shape or form.

Now it is and it's not nice, but it is legal.

The answer is to stop buying content you won't have control over, such as digital content.

Where does that idea come from? If you buy something on physical media, you own that one copy. You can use it as often as you like, or sell it, or give it away. At no point do you have to agree to any licence to use it. So there's nothing to revoke.

You own a licence to listen to the music or a license to watch the movie or a licence to play the game, you don't "own" the music or movie or game.  The licence can be revoked at any time.

Remember "All rights reserved?"

What on earth did you think it meant?

"All rights reserved" means that you are only buying that copy of the work.  You are not buying the copyright on it.  You are not buying the performance rights.  You are not buying the broadcasting rights.

That's all it means.  They can't stop you using that one copy you have bought for your own personal use.

user1977

I'm always careful not to watch my VHS tapes on oil rigs.