Speaker Comparison and BiWire

ChilliBob

Hey guys,
Not sure if this is the best place to ask about this or not, (or the techy section?), I'm considering a new set of speakers but I want to compare to the existing ones I have in terms of spec and how to wire them up.

I have these at the moment: https://www.tannoy.com/product.html;jsessionid=250DD835EE49ACB55361383330F66E56?modelCode=P0C57

And because I have a sub woofer I have two sets of speaker cables, set one powers the speakers, set two powers the sub, when connecting to the amp each set is combined into a banana plug before plugging in. 

I am considering these: https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/product-ranges/monitor/monitor-200/

Basically they fit slightly better in the space I have, will look better, and *I think* will be a better speaker - they have two bass cones for one! - But I'm not 100% sure. 

They have 'bi wiring' capabilities, but I think I may be getting that confused with what I am doing at the moment, and hence it may not offer any benefit. 

So yeah, any hi-fi heads care to weigh in with their take on this, much appreciated

EssexExile

I'll leave the bi wiring to someone else, it's decades since I heard that term.

On speaker choice - it's what works well in your room that matters more than specification. When I bought my audio system many years ago it included a pair of very expensive speakers that sounded great in the dealer's demo room. At home they sounded awful and were soon assigned to the junk room. Then I moved and in the new house they sound great again!

another_casualty

From memory , I think that your amp should have 2 sets of speaker terminals for bi wiring to work . Tech section is your best bet . However, if you are getting new speaker wire, the thicker the better. At least 79 strand . 

Those monito audios do look good ..

Mutton_Geoff

another_casualty said:

From memory , I think that your amp should have 2 sets of speaker terminals for bi wiring to work .

No it doesn't, it's the speaker that needs two pairs. You can biwire any speaker where the crossover is split to allow two pairs of inputs on the back of the speaker as the Monitor Audio speakers are. The way it works is that the low frequency (bass) is what takes all the current and any resistance in the cable causes a small voltage drop at the speaker with each bass beat. This then effectively acts as compression of the highs. By using two pairs of cables, the bass has no effect on the voltage across the high frequency pair so you benefit from better sound for possibly the cheapest upgrade possible, two sets of speaker cable. Both pairs wired back to the same two connectors on your amp. Make sure polarity is observed!

And don't get sucked into wasting money on cable. I'm a retired sound engineer and have worked in the studio and audio industry. This stuff is more than adequate ..

https://www.studiospares.com/cables-leads/cable-speaker/speaker-cable-23mm-per-m_548420.htm

(No connection to the business, just a happy customer). 

ChilliBob

Interesting, so at the moment I have something like this

Speaker cable for sub, speaker cable for speaker - double up into banana plug into amp.

Now bi-wiring would be the same as above but *two* cables for the speaker? - Could one really do this and use three cables into a banana plug or speaker terminal on the amp (without using bell wire lol).

I've tried the expensive interconnects and wire before and tbh, I didn't notice much difference.

In terms of spec comparison, how do you think they compare? - They look similar to me - in say frequency response etc, I wonder if the multiple cones is the main difference? - I note they are a narrower and shorter, but deeper cabinet than I have at the moment - which works better for me, but I wonder how it impacts the sound.

For reference (don't judge me!) these will mostly be used to play hardcore/jungle/dnb vinyl from say 91-95 or so.

In terms of the room comment - yes, I totally get you - I remember when I moved rooms in my parents house when my brother moved out - it was like I got a hifi upgrade in the process! 

Mutton_Geoff

ChilliBob said:

Interesting, so at the moment I have something like this

Speaker cable for sub, speaker cable for speaker - double up into banana plug into amp.

Now bi-wiring would be the same as above but *two* cables for the speaker? - Could one really do this and use three cables into a banana plug or speaker terminal on the amp (without using bell wire lol).

The main speaker pair to the sub only allows the sub to sample the bass it needs to amplify so it doesn't draw any current and bell wire would be acceptable to feed from the amp to sub. Since there may be bass content on either of the two channels, then both need feeding to the sub, which is why a dedicated sub out is better as the mixing has already occurred inside the amp and a single phono feed is all that is needed to the sub.

Don't forget you could come off the back of the speaker to the sub also, it doesn't have to be fed from the amp and whether you biwire or not, hooking the sub up with bell wire, same speaker wire or £10,000 a metre oxygen free snake skin won't make any difference to the way the speakers are driven by the amp as the sub input speaker connectors are high impedance (ie don't draw any current).

Gavin83

Bi-wiring is overrated. I wouldn’t bother unless you’re looking at bi-amping. Saying this its one of those things that divides opinion. I don’t think it makes any difference, others will disagree. Only way to really know it to try it out yourself or demo it.

I’d also make sure you demo those speakers before you buy. It’s good practice anyway but personally I hate the sound of the Monitor Audios, far too bright for me. You might have a different experience, everyone’s tastes are different but you need to listen to them before you buy.

ChilliBob

Mutton_Geoff said:

ChilliBob said:

Interesting, so at the moment I have something like this

Speaker cable for sub, speaker cable for speaker - double up into banana plug into amp.

Now bi-wiring would be the same as above but *two* cables for the speaker? - Could one really do this and use three cables into a banana plug or speaker terminal on the amp (without using bell wire lol).

The main speaker pair to the sub only allows the sub to sample the bass it needs to amplify so it doesn't draw any current and bell wire would be acceptable to feed from the amp to sub. Since there may be bass content on either of the two channels, then both need feeding to the sub, which is why a dedicated sub out is better as the mixing has already occurred inside the amp and a single phono feed is all that is needed to the sub.

Don't forget you could come off the back of the speaker to the sub also, it doesn't have to be fed from the amp and whether you biwire or not, hooking the sub up with bell wire, same speaker wire or £10,000 a metre oxygen free snake skin won't make any difference to the way the speakers are driven by the amp as the sub input speaker connectors are high impedance (ie don't draw any current).

Thanks, that's very useful, if a tad confusing! I did end up going for these in the end. My current setup (from memory, it's boxed up as we recently moved), is that both speakers and sub are connected to the amp, but not connected to each other. So, quite simply two speaker cable pairs, one from speaker to amp, one from sub to amp. At the amp end they're combined so two into each of the black and red terminals. 

That worked, and sounded decent. 

I'm confused with these new ones whether I should follow the same. 
Or, something different taking advantage of the fact the speakers have two ports.
Or, something different such as you're suggesting (regardless of the two ports!), which seems to be:
Speakers --> Sub --> Sub to amp - so akin to daisy chaining rather than doubling up. 

I may have, entirely, got this wrong, and I'll need to keep a note, as when I get these (today) I'll not be able to wire everything up for a few months as the room they're going in needs a referb, and it's not top of the list sadly! 

Heedtheadvice

@Mutton_Geoff and @Gavin83 have it about right.

There is much debate (as there often is in audiophile circles) regarding the benefits of small changes....and often there is no benefit at all!

I too have audio engineering experience from theoretical electronics to practical application in a professional environment.

One of the benefits of bi-wiring is (as well as Mutton's explanation) is on cone damping. i.e. damping any tendancy of a speaker cone to ring like a bell (just a tad!) and thus degrade the sound. It has at best in domestic set ups a very minor affect given good (not high end expensive!) cables. Slightly better still if bi-amped. If you do not have bi amping but just join cables together at the amp then it is virtually pointless!!

Then there is the potential benefit of bypassing the crossover (often can be a weak point in poorly designed speakers). One relies upon the design to get a smooth balanced transition between low and high frequencies both in terms of loudness and signal phase. Get either wrong and degredation occurs. Bi-wire and bi-amp can eliminate the difficult in-speaker crossover and can give a better and more accurate rendition. If you dont have the ability to bypass the speaker crossovers by bi-wiring and bi-amping and crossover in the amps you have lost one of the other potential benefits. That crossover bypass is limited by what the speaker designer gives you and a simple extra set of connectors (that are joined or separated by the user) must still have some sort of "crossover" type of protection so little benefit there too.

But the certainty is it is ifs buts and cost and really of little if any benefit at times. Results can be measured under lab conditions but of more importance is the design of the speakers. Especially if one is considering buying based partially on looks rather than the ultimate in sound then one is unlikely to want to spend many hundreds more for very very small improvements!!

Ok one buy's decent speakers (good ones are worth their weight in gold - not literally!), decent cable, amps etc.......

.......then ignores the acoustic environment such as room size, reflections,listening position, speaker positioning etc. Those can have a big impact on the sound you experience especially in perceived frequency balance, stereo imaging and 'fuzzy' bass rendition.

Personal setup...much more expensive speakers (several times the cost of the amps), positioned as best my room will allow, no bi-wire, just some bog standard heavy duty multistranded cable. Result, not quite studio quality but then that is due to domestic limitations where listening room acoustic treatment is not possible.

ChilliBob

Thanks, it sounds as though I'm perhaps best doing what (I think!) I was doing before

Sub --> Amp
Speaker --> Amp
Both cables combined into the speaker posts.

Would there be *any* logic in making use of both sets on the back of the speakers and running a cable between speaker and woofer?! (In addition to above), or is that just lunacy?

Gavin83

I’ve found from demoing speakers I don’t particularly like metal cones, I find the sound a tad harsh. It’s why I don’t particularly like Monitor Audio. My personal speaker brand of choice at the moment is Dali, which produce a much more balanced sound IMO.

It is a very personal matter though.