Howdens : what we did not know before proceeding

gr1nch

Hi,

We are ordinary homeowners who have never had a new kitchen before, so we are  inexperienced with kitchen purchasing, to say the least. Last year we bought a kitchen from Howdens. Our first joiner had suggested we open a Howden's account as he did not want it going on his for taxation reasons. To proceed with him, we agreed. At that point we had not yet decided Howdens were to be our kitchen supplier as we had just started looking around, but Howden's were who he worked with most and it was therefore a strong option. Later on with delays of the extension build, we ended up parting ways with this joiner, but another joiner we hired also recommended Howdens. At that point I'd used my Howdens account to buy a few doors and small items. No problems so far, everything seemed tickety boo.

However, once we ordered the kitchen, after a lot of attention and persuasion from their designer/salesman, since then, we have had immense  problems with Howdens, some resolved, some ongoing. These have included:

* being assured before agreeing to a deal that the prices were discounted from our regular prices, but when we were later able to check the prices, we realised that there were huge discrepancies between what we were being told our prices were and what they actually were on some units we estimate we are being overcharged more than treble.

* being pressured into agreeing the countertop specifications, then Howden's told us 1 working day before fitting that our countertops were not even in the country yet and it would be another 3 months at least before they were. So we had to go in and choose another countertop that was not our first choice. This delayed fitting by another couple of weeks.

* a visible manufacturing flaw in one quartz countertop

* machining and finishing flaws in all four countertops

* some items not delivered, needed chasing up

* some incorrect items delivered

* promise of a visit within a week or so by the depot manager to see the issues for himself. Not happened yet, after 5 months.

* promise to go over our concerns of pricing issues. Not happened yet, after 5 months.

We settled the countertop issues after 9 months of partial acceptance and partial denial from Howdens. Over that time they had sent fitters to:
* grind down all the edges to the double pencil to specification
* to make good the mismatched edge profiles on either side of the hob. This was not perfect and barely acceptable.
* passed responsibility onto Sheridan, then Consentino. Eventually they both sent representatives from distant offices - but Howdens, not once came to see the problems or talk through resolution, even they are in my town, 1 mile away from our home.

What I'd wish we'd known earlier.

1. If a Howden's sales person tells you the prices are discounted, insist on seeing those account prices first before agreeing anything. Even if they assure you, check. To bring this up after they have started shipping you the parts, they may turn against you and deny it, rather than, going through and justifying each unit.

2. Inspect all countertops absolutely thoroughly when delivered by their fitters, before they actually fit them. Don't go with their flow. Be certain. It could save you months of delay, distress and ultimately imperfect countertops.

gr1nch

Currently we are in dispute with Howdens over their invoicing as the pricing discrepancies have not been addressed our resolved. Howdens response has been "the pricing is correct" but without any justification. 

Had anyone had similar experiences?

How did you manage to get them resolved?

Manxman_in_exile

Howden's supposedly only deal with "trade" customers, not "ordinary homeowners".

That means - in theory - that you are not protected by any consumer rights legislation and that you are exactly in the same position as one of their trade customers, and you just have the usual contract principles and SOGA to rely on.

But in practice, if Howden's ought to have known that you were a bona fide consumer and not a trader, then you might have some consumer protection.  When you opened your account with Howden's, were you not asked to confirm that you were a trader and not a consumer?

Your original joiner was rather naughty in suggesting you open an account with Howden's.  Perhaps not surprising you've parted company with him...

If you search this site for Howden's you'll find similar threads.

[Edit:  All you can do is "argue" with them based on (1) the T&Cs of their contract and whether they are in breach of them, (2) on the ordinary principles of contract law, and (3) whatever SOGA rights still apply to non-consumer contracts.  As outlined above, if you didn't explain to Howdens that you were an "ordinary homeowner" and not a trader, you may have no consumer rights... ]

Bradden

When you apply for a trade account the 1st page has this:

Before we get started

We only sell to the trade and trades people. In order to process your application, you will be required to bring proof of identity and your address into a depot. We will also need to see a document that offers proof of your trade status,

gr1nch

Manxman_in_exile said:

Howden's supposedly only deal with "trade" customers, not "ordinary homeowners".

That means - in theory - that you are not protected by any consumer rights legislation and that you are exactly in the same position as one of their trade customers, and you just have the usual contract principles and SOGA to rely on.

But in practice, if Howden's ought to have known that you were a bona fide consumer and not a trader, then you might have some consumer protection.  When you opened your account with Howden's, were you not asked to confirm that you were a trader and not a consumer?

Your original joiner was rather naughty in suggesting you open an account with Howden's.  Perhaps not surprising you've parted company with him...

If you search this site for Howden's you'll find similar threads.

[Edit:  All you can do is "argue" with them based on (1) the T&Cs of their contract and whether they are in breach of them, (2) on the ordinary principles of contract law, and (3) whatever SOGA rights still apply to non-consumer contracts.  As outlined above, if you didn't explain to Howdens that you were an "ordinary homeowner" and not a trader, you may have no consumer rights... ]

Thanks Manxman.  The local Howdens knew that we were householders and not in the building trade - in fact my wife and I are both retired.  We were offered the account by Howdens when the joiner took us in to introduce us to the manager and to show off his kitchen work - he had installed the floor and kitchens in the Howdens showroom.  Howdens were glad to have us open an account with them as our joiner knew we were after other timber products, such as doors.  We were never told that their accounts were for trade only - if anything the opposite seemed to be true.   I notice that on their website when I sign in my account is listed as "Trade" not as "Consumer".  The designation of account was made by Howdens not me - we never requested a Trade account.

They did not say anything like "we never offer accounts to the public, but we will make an acception for you".  They made it seem entirely normal.  I also had an account for some time before that with a local, family owned building supplies company because we have what has turned out to be years of renovation work done on our house.  So another account seemed normal and convenient, i.e. buy now on account, pay later. 

gr1nch

Bradden said:

When you apply for a trade account the 1st page has this:

Before we get started

We only sell to the trade and trades people. In order to process your application, you will be required to bring proof of identity and your address into a depot. We will also need to see a document that offers proof of your trade status,

There was no 1st page as we were in the depot when Howdens opened the account for us in person.  They took our name and address, possibly I signed a form but I can't recall the details as it was a couple of years ago now and a lots happened in between.  We signed up for an account and they made it a Trade one at some point.  Either way it is not up to us to decide for Howdens to accept us as a customer (trade or consumer) and which type of an account they to grant to us.  It was up to them.

Bradden

I think the issue is that Howdens do not offer consumer accounts.. they will only seel to the trade. It is unusual for them to offer to open one for someone they knew is not in the trade. Usually they are strict about such things.

Thrugelmir

If you were buying at trade prices how did the original joiner make his margin?  

 

sheramber

 possibly I signed a form but I can't recall the details as it was a couple of years ago now and a lots happened in between.

These details may be very important. 

photome

Thrugelmir said:

If you were buying at trade prices how did the original joiner make his margin?  

 

Howdens prices are different for everyone ,depending on the amount of trade the trader gives them


as the OP had only just opened an account ( i am also surprised they let them) my guess is their price was way above what a regular trader would have got

lincroft1710

Howdens seem to operate a "when it suits them" policy, i.e. they suggest they are trade only, but will open an account for a non trade customer if it is in their interests to do so, especially where a known trade customer will be involved.