Landlord dispute - Am I entitled to a refund from my Landlord?

happych4ppy

The property for which I signed the Tenancy Agreement (to rent a room) was not fit for purpose (nor as advertised during the viewing process). The second toilet did not work and could not be fixed. The toilet did not flush. When flushed, the toilet water raised up the shower plug and into the shower basin. At no point throughout the viewing process did the Landlord inform me of any such issue with the toilet and/or plumbing. The landlord showed me around the property including the particular bathroom in question. The bathroom was presented as fully functional (nothing wrong) and the problem with the toiled/plumbing was not disclosed to me.

I signed the contract for 6 months from 1st December 2021 – 31st May 2022. On December 3rd I became aware of the issue and informed the Landlord. On December 14th the Landlord informed me that it couldn’t and would not be fixed; the drains could be unblocked but the issue would keep happening and so the toilet cannot be used.

Upon my request, (December 14th) the Landlord agreed to let me out of the contract. However, when asking the Landlord to refund my deposit and first months rent (£900) the Landlord referred me to the Agent and stated that I would unlikely get anything back due to his costs. 

At no point have I lived in the property yet I have lost £900 (£450 deposit + £450 December rent)

From some research is transpires that I could potentially make a Small-Claim to enforce the initial offer made to terminate the agreement. This is done on the basis that there was no mention of what fees are able payable when this early release was put forward by you to the Landlord and they accepted it without mentioning any fees that would have been payable. This would potentially lead to an argument that if the Landlord has informed the tenant that these fees were payable, they would have not terminated the agreement and instead looked to take action to rectify the issues such as informing the council about the disrepair and potential breaches of HMO regulations and as such should be returned to you in full.

Is this worth perusing a as a small claim?

Thanks

HampshireH

Have you put your complaint in writing to the LA or attempted to claim your deposit back via the DPS If it even registered in that time ?

I would complain in writing to the LA and state your reasoning , that you request your rent and deposit be returned on the basis the landlord agreed to bring and early end to the property without mention of any fees payable.

You can state your next steps will be smalls claims if they don't respond favourably

Go from there

It is April now though so what have you been doing for 4 months to resolve it?

canaldumidi

Invovling Enviromental Healt and the council's HMO dept at the time would have been a better way forward.

And when geting the tenancy ended, getting the terms clearly agreed, in writing, would also have been a better way forward.

But water under the bridge.

This all happened 4 months ago (not that that prevents legal action) so what has been happening in the interim? Why the wait?

The problem you face is one of evidence. What evidence do you have of the plumbing issues? Of having dealt with your complaints properly? Of the terms of the agreement to surrender the tenancy?

And what defence is the LL likely to put forward? What might he say he agreed at the time? Or that you agreed? After all, it is fairly normal when a tenant requests an Early Surreder of a tenancy for a LL to impose some conditions for his agreement eg to coer his re-marketing costs ad/or rent till a replacement tenant is found.

So yes, you can initiate a small claim, but success is I suspect not guaranteed.

You could consider reporting the plumbing issues (assuming they are still ongoing) to the HMO inspectors, or, perhaps, suggest to the LL that you will do this unless he refunds you your deposit etc.......

happych4ppy

Thanks for your input. January 14th I officially complained to the LL and the LA in writing via email and post. I put together a letter detailing everything that happened and how I believed I was entitled to a refund. The LL never replied. The LA replied stating how it's between me and the LL and there's nothing they can do (the LL just uses them to let the property but it is managed by the LL so it's between me and him.

After a reasonable amount of time I then contacted the council, they took note of the HMO/bathroom issue and said they would investigate however they also informed me that there was nothing they could do to reclaim the money as it was between me and him. They referred me to JusticeForTenants who replied saying the part about how I could potentially pursue a small claim based on the fact he accepted early termination before presenting any early termination fees etc. I then contacted Citizens Advice who just sent me information regarding making a claim however I couldn't really discern if it is going to be worth my time. Hence why I'm here...

I have a pretty good paper trail to show all my moves/correspondence so far. So far the LL has done nothing but ignored me. I have all the screenshots of tests showing his failure to respond/mediate etc. So far the correspondence I can prove shows his unwillingness to mediate whilst I on the other hand have tried pretty much everything but go to court.

Now that I have exhausted pretty much every option with the LA and the council etc I have decided to try and pursue the deposit with TDS, I'm still waiting on that however even in the even that I do get that I am still another £450 in the hole. Hence why I wanted to pursue the official mediation routes first. My last option I guess is to make a small claim agains the LL. 

saajan_12

happych4ppy said:

The property for which I signed the Tenancy Agreement (to rent a room) was not fit for purpose (nor as advertised during the viewing process). - how was it not fit for purpose (do you mean the toilet issue or something else in the room?) The second toilet did not work and could not be fixed. The toilet did not flush. When flushed, the toilet water raised up the shower plug and into the shower basin.  - okay, not working. Did you have access to another toilet that did work? At no point throughout the viewing process did the Landlord inform me of any such issue with the toilet and/or plumbing. The landlord showed me around the property including the particular bathroom in question. The bathroom was presented as fully functional (nothing wrong) and the problem with the toiled/plumbing was not disclosed to me.

I signed the contract for 6 months from 1st December 2021 – 31st May 2022. On December 3rd I became aware of the issue and informed the Landlord. On December 14th the Landlord informed me that it couldn’t and would not be fixed; the drains could be unblocked but the issue would keep happening and so the toilet cannot be used. - did you report the issue in writing? Also did you explain that you signed up on the basis of 2 working toilets and had to insist on a fix (or would follow the Shelter process) or negotiate a reduction for the reduced facilities?

Upon my request, (December 14th) the Landlord agreed to let me out of the contract. - what exactly was stated and agreed? The problems don't sound enough to 'frustrate' the contract, so this termination is just a mutually agreed settlement - as such, it needs to be a complete agreement including any payments. 

However, when asking the Landlord to refund my deposit and first months rent (£900) the Landlord referred me to the Agent and stated that I would unlikely get anything back due to his costs. - what did you agree at the time ie in December? If nothing, then arguably this wasn't a complete agreement, or move out and no further monies exchanged was the agreement. 

At no point have I lived in the property yet I have lost £900 (£450 deposit + £450 December rent)

From some research is transpires that I could potentially make a Small-Claim to enforce the initial offer made to terminate the agreement. This is done on the basis that there was no mention of what fees are able payable when this early release was put forward by you to the Landlord and they accepted it without mentioning any fees that would have been payable. This would potentially lead to an argument that if the Landlord has informed the tenant that these fees were payable, they would have not terminated the agreement and instead looked to take action to rectify the issues such as informing the council about the disrepair and potential breaches of HMO regulations and as such should be returned to you in full. - If you mutually agreed to terminate the agreement, then what did YOU mention about the deposit and rent in December? If it was left for 4 months with no mention, then arguably the expectation on both sides was that no money would be returned. If he agreed to return money then you could go to court to enforce that.. 

Is this worth perusing a as a small claim?

Thanks

Re the toilet issues, did you have access to another working toilet? If so, the overall property was habitable / fit for purpose, (albeit not as advertised), hence no reason for the contract to be frustrated -> the tenancy can continue / no right to terminate. 

Its not as described ie with two toilets, and potentially breaching HMO regulation & environmental health -> so you can report the issue and follow the Shelter process to get it repaired, eventually repairing and deducting the cost yourself. You can also report to the relevant EH and HMO bodies, to push the LL to get it sorted, but those don't automatically mean any compensation to you. 

Re termination - this isn't something you had a right to (given contract not frustrated as above), so its a mutual settlement between you and the LL. Its up to both parties to agree exactly what they agree to, as its outside the provisions in the original tenancy agreement. As with any mutual termination, that includes agreeing move out date, what happens to deposit, past / future rent, etc. If nothing was mentioned, then its entirely up in the air on what a judge guesses was in everyone's minds when the agreement was reached. Factors could include 
- no mention of refunds = no expectation of refunds, everyone just goes their separate ways 
- market standard to deduct for reletting costs. However fees shouldn't exceed this per Tenancy Fee Act 2019, so you can ask them to justify the exact amount and return any extra
- rent usually not subdivisible by default, but they can't get rent twice for the same period - did the new tenant move in before 3rd Jan? 
- what happened between Dec and Apr - no follow up for 4 months suggests the lack of refund was the expectation

happych4ppy

saajan_12 said:

happych4ppy said:

The property for which I signed the Tenancy Agreement (to rent a room) was not fit for purpose (nor as advertised during the viewing process). - how was it not fit for purpose (do you mean the toilet issue or something else in the room?) The second toilet did not work and could not be fixed. The toilet did not flush. When flushed, the toilet water raised up the shower plug and into the shower basin.  - okay, not working. Did you have access to another toilet that did work? At no point throughout the viewing process did the Landlord inform me of any such issue with the toilet and/or plumbing. The landlord showed me around the property including the particular bathroom in question. The bathroom was presented as fully functional (nothing wrong) and the problem with the toiled/plumbing was not disclosed to me.

I signed the contract for 6 months from 1st December 2021 – 31st May 2022. On December 3rd I became aware of the issue and informed the Landlord. On December 14th the Landlord informed me that it couldn’t and would not be fixed; the drains could be unblocked but the issue would keep happening and so the toilet cannot be used. - did you report the issue in writing? Also did you explain that you signed up on the basis of 2 working toilets and had to insist on a fix (or would follow the Shelter process) or negotiate a reduction for the reduced facilities?

Upon my request, (December 14th) the Landlord agreed to let me out of the contract. - what exactly was stated and agreed? The problems don't sound enough to 'frustrate' the contract, so this termination is just a mutually agreed settlement - as such, it needs to be a complete agreement including any payments. 

However, when asking the Landlord to refund my deposit and first months rent (£900) the Landlord referred me to the Agent and stated that I would unlikely get anything back due to his costs. - what did you agree at the time ie in December? If nothing, then arguably this wasn't a complete agreement, or move out and no further monies exchanged was the agreement. 

At no point have I lived in the property yet I have lost £900 (£450 deposit + £450 December rent)

From some research is transpires that I could potentially make a Small-Claim to enforce the initial offer made to terminate the agreement. This is done on the basis that there was no mention of what fees are able payable when this early release was put forward by you to the Landlord and they accepted it without mentioning any fees that would have been payable. This would potentially lead to an argument that if the Landlord has informed the tenant that these fees were payable, they would have not terminated the agreement and instead looked to take action to rectify the issues such as informing the council about the disrepair and potential breaches of HMO regulations and as such should be returned to you in full. - If you mutually agreed to terminate the agreement, then what did YOU mention about the deposit and rent in December? If it was left for 4 months with no mention, then arguably the expectation on both sides was that no money would be returned. If he agreed to return money then you could go to court to enforce that.. 

Is this worth perusing a as a small claim?

Thanks

Re the toilet issues, did you have access to another working toilet? If so, the overall property was habitable / fit for purpose, (albeit not as advertised), hence no reason for the contract to be frustrated -> the tenancy can continue / no right to terminate. 

Its not as described ie with two toilets, and potentially breaching HMO regulation & environmental health -> so you can report the issue and follow the Shelter process to get it repaired, eventually repairing and deducting the cost yourself. You can also report to the relevant EH and HMO bodies, to push the LL to get it sorted, but those don't automatically mean any compensation to you. 

Re termination - this isn't something you had a right to (given contract not frustrated as above), so its a mutual settlement between you and the LL. Its up to both parties to agree exactly what they agree to, as its outside the provisions in the original tenancy agreement. As with any mutual termination, that includes agreeing move out date, what happens to deposit, past / future rent, etc. If nothing was mentioned, then its entirely up in the air on what a judge guesses was in everyone's minds when the agreement was reached. Factors could include 
- no mention of refunds = no expectation of refunds, everyone just goes their separate ways 
- market standard to deduct for reletting costs. However fees shouldn't exceed this per Tenancy Fee Act 2019, so you can ask them to justify the exact amount and return any extra
- rent usually not subdivisible by default, but they can't get rent twice for the same period - did the new tenant move in before 3rd Jan? 
- what happened between Dec and Apr - no follow up for 4 months suggests the lack of refund was the expectation

The property was HMO for 5 people and the council guidelines state the LL has responsibility to maintain 2 working toilets, therefor I asset it's no fit fir purpose (or as advertised)

From Dec to April has been me going through the formal process so as to make sure I have done everything correctly. This had requires a fair amount of time waiting, 1) official complaint to the landlord and agent, then waiting for reply, 2) complaining to council then waiting for reply, 3) corresponding with justicefortenants and waiting for reply, 4) corresponding with citizens advice and waiting for reply, 5) corresponding with shelter, 6) now seeking advice from here. It's not as if I have been sat around doing nothing, plus I'm no expert and working full time. I feel like it's more than reasonable that it's taken me this long.

Seeing as I requested to be let out of the contract on the day I moved In, I assumed he would let me out of the whole thing. I never stayed there one night. I feel it was on him to make it clear that I was not getting a refund. I requested to be let out the contract he simply replied "yes" I then requested what to do and he said he would speak with the agent. I then i did't hear off him from another week until I then messaged him asking about a refund and only then was I told that now I would have to speak to the agent and that I would unlikely get anything back. By which time I had already signed another tenancy agreement somewhere else. I feel the lack of communication is on him.

happych4ppy

saajan_12 said:

happych4ppy said:

The property for which I signed the Tenancy Agreement (to rent a room) was not fit for purpose (nor as advertised during the viewing process). - how was it not fit for purpose (do you mean the toilet issue or something else in the room?) The second toilet did not work and could not be fixed. The toilet did not flush. When flushed, the toilet water raised up the shower plug and into the shower basin.  - okay, not working. Did you have access to another toilet that did work? At no point throughout the viewing process did the Landlord inform me of any such issue with the toilet and/or plumbing. The landlord showed me around the property including the particular bathroom in question. The bathroom was presented as fully functional (nothing wrong) and the problem with the toiled/plumbing was not disclosed to me.

I signed the contract for 6 months from 1st December 2021 – 31st May 2022. On December 3rd I became aware of the issue and informed the Landlord. On December 14th the Landlord informed me that it couldn’t and would not be fixed; the drains could be unblocked but the issue would keep happening and so the toilet cannot be used. - did you report the issue in writing? Also did you explain that you signed up on the basis of 2 working toilets and had to insist on a fix (or would follow the Shelter process) or negotiate a reduction for the reduced facilities?

Upon my request, (December 14th) the Landlord agreed to let me out of the contract. - what exactly was stated and agreed? The problems don't sound enough to 'frustrate' the contract, so this termination is just a mutually agreed settlement - as such, it needs to be a complete agreement including any payments. 

However, when asking the Landlord to refund my deposit and first months rent (£900) the Landlord referred me to the Agent and stated that I would unlikely get anything back due to his costs. - what did you agree at the time ie in December? If nothing, then arguably this wasn't a complete agreement, or move out and no further monies exchanged was the agreement. 

At no point have I lived in the property yet I have lost £900 (£450 deposit + £450 December rent)

From some research is transpires that I could potentially make a Small-Claim to enforce the initial offer made to terminate the agreement. This is done on the basis that there was no mention of what fees are able payable when this early release was put forward by you to the Landlord and they accepted it without mentioning any fees that would have been payable. This would potentially lead to an argument that if the Landlord has informed the tenant that these fees were payable, they would have not terminated the agreement and instead looked to take action to rectify the issues such as informing the council about the disrepair and potential breaches of HMO regulations and as such should be returned to you in full. - If you mutually agreed to terminate the agreement, then what did YOU mention about the deposit and rent in December? If it was left for 4 months with no mention, then arguably the expectation on both sides was that no money would be returned. If he agreed to return money then you could go to court to enforce that.. 

Is this worth perusing a as a small claim?

Thanks

Re the toilet issues, did you have access to another working toilet? If so, the overall property was habitable / fit for purpose, (albeit not as advertised), hence no reason for the contract to be frustrated -> the tenancy can continue / no right to terminate. 

Its not as described ie with two toilets, and potentially breaching HMO regulation & environmental health -> so you can report the issue and follow the Shelter process to get it repaired, eventually repairing and deducting the cost yourself. You can also report to the relevant EH and HMO bodies, to push the LL to get it sorted, but those don't automatically mean any compensation to you. 

Re termination - this isn't something you had a right to (given contract not frustrated as above), so its a mutual settlement between you and the LL. Its up to both parties to agree exactly what they agree to, as its outside the provisions in the original tenancy agreement. As with any mutual termination, that includes agreeing move out date, what happens to deposit, past / future rent, etc. If nothing was mentioned, then its entirely up in the air on what a judge guesses was in everyone's minds when the agreement was reached. Factors could include 
- no mention of refunds = no expectation of refunds, everyone just goes their separate ways 
- market standard to deduct for reletting costs. However fees shouldn't exceed this per Tenancy Fee Act 2019, so you can ask them to justify the exact amount and return any extra
- rent usually not subdivisible by default, but they can't get rent twice for the same period - did the new tenant move in before 3rd Jan? 
- what happened between Dec and Apr - no follow up for 4 months suggests the lack of refund was the expectation

My request for early termination  was a text message along the lines of "will you let me out the contract as I have another place I can move in providing my money isn't tied up in the contract" to which he replied "no problem" I assumed this meant that he would let provide a full refund as I hadn't even lived there. I asked what to do next, asking if I should speak with the letting agent to which the LL replied "I will speak to them"

A week then past without me hearing anything back from the LL. After ignoring me twice, he finally replied saying that actually now I will have to speak to the LA and that I will "unlikely get anything back due to his costs" (£900 in costs really?)

When I formally complained to the LA they told me that this was the first they had heard of the matter (suggesting that he never actually spoke to them like he assured me he would)

The LL then proceeded to ignore every message i have sent since, suggesting and unwillingness to mediate. He basically palmed me off to the LA even tho i know the contract is between me and him.

I know there was no specification about early termination agreements at the time of break clause but would the Judge would not favour my argument seeing as the LL was so incompetent, insincere and unwilling to cooperate.

TripleH

Your stumbling block might be that 'you' determined it was not fit for purpose because it didn't meet the 'guidelines' rather than an independent party.

Plus these are guidelines rather than rules so what measures do the council have to enforce them?

I suspect that the reality is that HMO's can legally continue with only 1 working toilet to cover responsible landlords who take the correct steps when 1 toilet does break.

I must add that you have my sympathies for the predicament you have found yourself in but you might struggle with an outcome satisfactory to you from this because I interpret it as you took the wrong steps at the wrong time.