Loft Insulation Grant - company moving the goalposts.

Eldi_Dos

FlatFour said:

Quick update...

TOTAL miss-communication on behalf of both the Insulation company and the grant company.  Despite the grant companies documentation making no mention of PIV, they said we'd need it and would not proceed otherwise.

Anyway, after some back and forth and lots of apologies from both parties, well, what a mix up.  It was never the intent to actually fit PIV at all, rather they wanted to fit a simple extractor fan in the kitchen.  The bathroom already has one, so it's good there, this was just for that room, something to do with ventilation regulations.

So, that's fine.  We'd actually though about fitting an extractor in the kitchen anyway.  All this fuss about what was actually nothing...communication is key.

To be clear Positive Input Ventilation is a very specific term - that we'd not heard of previously - and was used by several people at the Insulation company.  So, no misunderstanding on our part at all.

Insulation guys turned up as I sat down to type this and are currently working.

Hi wonder if you could tell us what sort of control the extractor fan has and whether the installer briefed you on how to use.

Mardle

It doesn't surprise me that the requirements changed.

We had exterior wall insulation fitted under the Green Homes Grant in 2020. Nothing at all was said about extra ventilation until the work was well under way. We already had extractors in the kitchen & downstairs wet room but apparently we needed trickle vents in some of the windows & an extractor in the upstairs bathroom. We found out when one of the workmen turned up to install the trickle vents.

FreeBear

Mardle said: apparently we needed trickle vents in some of the windows & an extractor in the upstairs bathroom. We found out when one of the workmen turned up to install the trickle vents.

Trickle vents are only required when installing new windows and the old ones had them - That is all due to change come June 15th when the latest set of building regulations come in to force. The requirement will be for "background ventilation" in certain specified rooms - This can either be trickle vents on the windows or a MHRV/PIV system.

An extractor for the bathroom has been a requirement for some time...

But.... If you are having work done on one area of the house (e.g. EWI), they can not go demanding that you make changes to other parts of the building to "comply" with regulations - If this were the case, fitting a single window would have you updating the wiring & consumer unit.

Mardle

FreeBear said:

Mardle said: apparently we needed trickle vents in some of the windows & an extractor in the upstairs bathroom. We found out when one of the workmen turned up to install the trickle vents.

Trickle vents are only required when installing new windows and the old ones had them - That is all due to change come June 15th when the latest set of building regulations come in to force. The requirement will be for "background ventilation" in certain specified rooms - This can either be trickle vents on the windows or a MHRV/PIV system.

An extractor for the bathroom has been a requirement for some time...

But.... If you are having work done on one area of the house (e.g. EWI), they can not go demanding that you make changes to other parts of the building to "comply" with regulations - If this were the case, fitting a single window would have you updating the wiring & consumer unit.

The trickle vents & extra extractor must have been requirements under that particular grant. I can't see any company bringing in an electrician to supply & fit an unnecessary extractor fan if they weren't going to get paid any extra for the work. 

The trickle vents were fitted in the living rooms and bedrooms. 

FlatFour

I know it's been months, but I thought I'd post a follow-up on this now it's cold out there.

Basically, the loft insulation appears to have made zero difference to heat retention, which is quite shocking.  It's certainly thicker and using a more modern material, but it's been laid down very "lumpy" up there, with some of it piled quite high and other areas not so much.  The extractor fan in the Kitchen is the worst of all though.  It has little flaps on the outside to supposedly stop drafts - they weren't going to fit that initially, just an open hole to the outside - but it's woefully inadequate.  The kitchen is now objectively colder than it was before, yet the extractor fan doesn't even work well, despite its position right above the cooker.  Quite a draft comes in through this hole with the slightest of breezes.

We had been promised a follow-up independent inspection of the work done as part of the process.  One, I assume, to ensure that grant money paid is properly earnt by the contractor assigned to do the work.  This never happened.  Chasing yielded nothing.

So, the scheme to help people towards the cost of a loft insulation update is a good thing, but the actual work carried out leaves a lot to be desired.  Being unwell and not having the capacity to keep on top of such things makes it all worse.  There's only so much chasing I can do.

I did fill out a survey we were sent after the work was done - waited until the colder weather to do so - but that struck me as not really aimed at benefiting the customer.  Some of the questions it asked were really personal and irrelevant to the job done.

As it stands, I'm going to have to get into the loft - or get some help to do so - and re-lay all of it to at least be more evenly put down.  It's not working in its current configuration.

So, the upstairs rooms on the end of the house, are still just as cold as they were before.  I didn't expect miracles from updated loft insulation, but (on average) double the depth of a supposedly better insulating materials should have done something.

The big area for improvement, once the insulation is properly laid down, is the sloped ceiling area that has NO insulation, yet was identified as the "cold spot" during the survey.  It was something they said they'd remedy, but that wasn't true.  I'm planning to get this sloped ceiling "built up" internally with a layer of insulation, then boarded in.

I can heat these rooms, however, as I tested last night, the speed at which the temperature drops if you turn off the heat is quite alarming.  This was the issue before, and it's the issue now.

housebuyer143

FlatFour said:

Hi,

As our house was F-Rated in a recent energy performance survey (ex-housing association property), we qualified for a grant to get new loft insulation as the current loft insulation is very uneven and less than half the thickness it should be.  We have this agreed all in writing, with the work starting tomorrow.

On Monday (yesterday) this week we got a call from the company doing this asking if we'd also like a "Positive Ventilation System" fitted in the loft.  We didn't know what this was so took some time to look it up before responding.  I can see how this might benefit some homes, but we don't suffer from any damp issues this is reported to help with.  So, this really isn't for us for that and other reasons.  We called them just now to say we don't require this additional work and now they're saying we HAVE to have it, else they'll not do the previously-agreed loft insulation.

Checking the documents we have - it's all in writing - there's not a single mention of this ventilation system at all, just the schedule for doing the insulation, a new energy certificate then a follow-up inspection to say the work is up to standard.  Three visits in all.  The first we heard about "Positive Ventilation System" was the call from the company on Monday, asking us if we'd like it as well.  That's it.  They're now saying they won't do the previously agreed (and grant applied for an given) work unless we agree to this extra work too.  Totally out of the blue.

We've left a message with the person will dealt with to get the grant, it's the company actually doing the work that's suddenly added this in.  I don't really know why they're suddenly insisting on this after the grant has been approved for the loft insulation.

Just wanted to see what others think about this whole last-minute fiasco.  Things had seemed to be going very smoothly until this point.

Same thing happened to my nan.. They refused to do the loft insulation unless she had cavity wall at the same time.. Not enough money in it doing just the loft so they are not interested.

If it's free I would get it.. We have one and it's good to pump fresh air around the house.

FlatFour

housebuyer143 said:

Same thing happened to my nan.. They refused to do the loft insulation unless she had cavity wall at the same time.. Not enough money in it doing just the loft so they are not interested.

If it's free I would get it.. We have one and it's good to pump fresh air around the house.

House would have been much much colder with such a system.  They say "turn the heating up to compensate" - or some have a built-in heater.  This is not and older property that'd potentially benefit from such a system due to damp, nor would the quite significant additional cost to maintain a given temperature be acceptable.  The upstairs was already cold due to sub-par insulation, adding more cold air wasn't the way to go lol.

They were trying to up-sell for a problem that did not exist and they new did not exist.  Still, apparently it was all a great big mistake so it never happened.  Based on the bodge that is the extractor fan, I've not faith they'd have been able to install a PVS well anyway.

webjaved

I was told to wait for the Spring when the new grants come out, I told them I'm not waiting that long otherwise, my kids and wife would probably be in the hospital suffering from pneumonia.  

I've cleared all the crap out the loft and put down 100mm and then 200mm on top. It's made a big difference but with me I need to do some draught proofing around the windows as cold air is coming in & windows being wet. 

Trust me, once you do the loft yourself properly you will notice a difference quickly. 

FreeBear

webjaved said: I was told to wait for the Spring when the new grants come out, I told them I'm not waiting that long otherwise, my kids and wife would probably be in the hospital suffering from pneumonia.

Early indication is that this new ECO+ scheme is going to end up being a [redacted] mess similar to the last Green Homes grants. So you probably did the best thing insulating your loft now rather than waiting for the cowboys to jump on the bandwagon.

webjaved

FreeBear said:

webjaved said: I was told to wait for the Spring when the new grants come out, I told them I'm not waiting that long otherwise, my kids and wife would probably be in the hospital suffering from pneumonia.

Early indication is that this new ECO+ scheme is going to end up being a [redacted] mess similar to the last Green Homes grants. So you probably did the best thing insulating your loft now rather than waiting for the cowboys to jump on the bandwagon.

Exactly this! One of the biggest reasons why I did the job myself, I can sit comfortably knowing a job has been done properly and a cowboy hasn't been to make a mess just to recoup the payment from the Government.

There's more insulation that will be going in where there are boards down, the area in the loft is too big for us for storage so rather cover the sides with the spare 2 rolls I have left over!