Loft Insulation Grant - company moving the goalposts.

FlatFour

Hi,

As our house was F-Rated in a recent energy performance survey (ex-housing association property), we qualified for a grant to get new loft insulation as the current loft insulation is very uneven and less than half the thickness it should be.  We have this agreed all in writing, with the work starting tomorrow.

On Monday (yesterday) this week we got a call from the company doing this asking if we'd also like a "Positive Ventilation System" fitted in the loft.  We didn't know what this was so took some time to look it up before responding.  I can see how this might benefit some homes, but we don't suffer from any damp issues this is reported to help with.  So, this really isn't for us for that and other reasons.  We called them just now to say we don't require this additional work and now they're saying we HAVE to have it, else they'll not do the previously-agreed loft insulation.

Checking the documents we have - it's all in writing - there's not a single mention of this ventilation system at all, just the schedule for doing the insulation, a new energy certificate then a follow-up inspection to say the work is up to standard.  Three visits in all.  The first we heard about "Positive Ventilation System" was the call from the company on Monday, asking us if we'd like it as well.  That's it.  They're now saying they won't do the previously agreed (and grant applied for an given) work unless we agree to this extra work too.  Totally out of the blue.

We've left a message with the person will dealt with to get the grant, it's the company actually doing the work that's suddenly added this in.  I don't really know why they're suddenly insisting on this after the grant has been approved for the loft insulation.

Just wanted to see what others think about this whole last-minute fiasco.  Things had seemed to be going very smoothly until this point.

TELLIT01

I would suggest that their actions mean they are either incompetent or a bunch of chancers who think they can force people into additional spending by dropping things on them at the last minute.  I would not be inclined to trust them.

As a matter of interest, how much extra are they trying to charge for the 'Positive Ventilation System' and how much was the original work to cost?

FlatFour

TELLIT01 said:

I would suggest that their actions mean they are either incompetent or a bunch of chancers who think they can force people into additional spending by dropping things on them at the last minute.  I would not be inclined to trust them.

As a matter of interest, how much extra are they trying to charge for the 'Positive Ventilation System' and how much was the original work to cost?

I'd be inclined to agree with your assessment, however, it'd be free to us, they just get extra money from (effectively) the government grant for the extra work.  If I felt this Positive Ventilation System had actual value for us, I'd be fine with it.  However, after reading lots of reports from people who've had it - plenty of positive ones - we simply don't meet the criteria (damp problems) for it to do anything for us.  Add to that they'll be installing things in the loft and making holes in the ceiling - feeding COLD loft air into the house and forcing out warm air - then I simply do not see a benefit to it.  The last minute nature of all this and the threat to not do the agree-upon work is definitely unprofessional.  The guy who called us about it on Monday didn't even know what it was when he called, which was dead strange - he Googled it while on the phone!

BUFF

FlatFour said:

TELLIT01 said:

I would suggest that their actions mean they are either incompetent or a bunch of chancers who think they can force people into additional spending by dropping things on them at the last minute.  I would not be inclined to trust them.

As a matter of interest, how much extra are they trying to charge for the 'Positive Ventilation System' and how much was the original work to cost?

I'd be inclined to agree with your assessment, however, it'd be free to us, they just get extra money from (effectively) the government grant for the extra work.  

This is abuse of the grant system (fraud) & could lead to there being no funds left for some people who need work.
Should you decide not to go ahead with this installer I would report them.

FlatFour

BUFF said:

This is abuse of the grant system (fraud) & could lead to there being no funds left for some people who need work.
Should you decide not to go ahead with this installer I would report them.

It is rather concerning.  I was just checking the grant paperwork and it's only providing funds towards loft insulation, that's it - it's an itemised list of the amount and exactly what it can be used for.  How they think they'll claim for additional work is beyond me, as the paperwork from the National Energy Foundations (the grant people) is quite clear on this, the grant is only for what they say it is for, loft insulation.  The insulation company have to invoice NEF directly for payment, we don't have anything to do with the Money / payment ourselves.

We're currently drafting an email to the grant people - we left a phone message earlier, but I suspect we've missed them for the day now - detailing what's occurred.  We did call back the insulation company and they confirmed that they're still doing the agreed insulation work tomorrow, but also mentioned that we have to have this Positive Ventilation System installed too.  We've not agreed to that.

Eldi_Dos

Are other properties in your estate getting this work carried out just now?
If yes you mention yours is ex housing association, could be H/A are having the PVS installed in their properties and company just assumes every property is to have one.I know it seems a long shot but doing what they are doing without asking for money does not make much sense.

FlatFour

Eldi_Dos said:

Are other properties in your estate getting this work carried out just now?
If yes you mention yours is ex housing association, could be H/A are having the PVS installed in their properties and company just assumes every property is to have one.I know it seems a long shot but doing what they are doing without asking for money does not make much sense.

No, just us.  It's not an estate as such, we are just one of six houses that were originally Council / HA, only one remains as an HA property.  We are the most recent to buy, the others being bought in the 80's an 90's IIRC.  It's all very odd.

Checking the paperwork, we have no contract with this insulation company, just the forms etc. we've signed with NEF which clearly detail the grant being for loft insulation, nothing else.

FlatFour

I've thought about this some more and my plan for tomorrow is as follows...

Assuming they do turn up, as they've promised they would, I will speak to them to see if they are prepared to do just the work we agreed and that the grant is for.  I.e. the loft insulation.  If they are fine with this then we're all good.  If they still insist on doing the additional work - which the grant does not appear to cover according to the documentation, then they will be asked to leave and this will all be reported to NEF and I will look into making a formal complaint.

I think it's incredibly unfair and pretty dodgy to have this extra work only mentioned (no details) two days beforehand, and then they insist on doing it.

FreeBear

FlatFour said: On Monday (yesterday) this week we got a call from the company doing this asking if we'd also like a "Positive Ventilation System" fitted in the loft. 

...

We called them just now to say we don't require this additional work and now they're saying we HAVE to have it, else they'll not do the previously-agreed loft insulation.

Latest set of Building Regulations has added a requirement for "background ventilation", which some take to mean trickle vents, others, PIV systems. There have been a number of news letters & briefings going out to various companies, and several are making assumptions... These new regs don't actually come in to force until June 15th 2022, so any work started before that date only needs to comply with the older regs. Even then the regs use words like "recommend" and "should" rather than "must", and on the front page, it clearly states that "this is guidance" - Check it out yourself if interested - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/conservation-of-fuel-and-power-approved-document-l

Looking at having the last few windows replaced here and have had a similar argument with some of the local companies. One was adamant that I HAD to have trickle vents fitted, whilst others were aware of the effective date and alternative options - I don't want trickle vents.... It could be that some numpty with your installers are confused about dates and specific requirements of the Building Regulations.

Bendy_House

Who is 'NEF'? I presume it's the providers of the grant? So it makes sense to contact them as you said.

Fair chance this confusion is down to simple ignorance by the insulating company, misreading the requirements as suggested above. I just can't see them being able to 'get away' with adding something which will be an obvious 'extra' and expecting the grant supplier to simply cough up, but you never know!

One option could be to just accept it, but not turn it on?

FlatFour

Quick update...

TOTAL miss-communication on behalf of both the Insulation company and the grant company.  Despite the grant companies documentation making no mention of PIV, they said we'd need it and would not proceed otherwise.

Anyway, after some back and forth and lots of apologies from both parties, well, what a mix up.  It was never the intent to actually fit PIV at all, rather they wanted to fit a simple extractor fan in the kitchen.  The bathroom already has one, so it's good there, this was just for that room, something to do with ventilation regulations.

So, that's fine.  We'd actually though about fitting an extractor in the kitchen anyway.  All this fuss about what was actually nothing...communication is key.

To be clear Positive Input Ventilation is a very specific term - that we'd not heard of previously - and was used by several people at the Insulation company.  So, no misunderstanding on our part at all.

Insulation guys turned up as I sat down to type this and are currently working.