Permit blew off dashboard then PCN issued by IPC member

puk999

Hello,

Driver staying at a holiday cottage which came with permit for local pay and display car park. This was just after storms Eunice/Franklin. Permit blew off into driver-side footwell, probably when exiting the vehicle. PCN issued by Armtrac Security Services (t/as K.B.T. Cornwall LTD). I'm the registered keeper. Was advised (on Pepipoo) to write an appeal letter and included a photo of the permit in this letter. Armtrac declined the appeal 19 days ago, and provided photographic evidence partially showing the front car footwells at the time of parking. They don't show the entirety of the footwells.They are saying I can appeal to the IPC. Of course, they're also saying there's signage stating that retrospective evidence of authority to park will not be accepted, and the PCN was issued correctly because the permit was not correctly displayed.

I was just about to write Armtrac a response letter saying that their picture doesn't show the entire footwell and that there was a permit in force at the time so there is no actual loss to them. Is this wise? If not, please advise how I should proceed.

Regards,

Puk

Fruitcake

Don't write to the PPC again, and as for the no loss point, that went out the window in the Beavis case nearly seven years ago.

Previously we had suggested that an IAS appeal is pointless, but now that advice has changed, even though the chances of a win are about 4%. It will show that you attempted to "narrow the issues" should this go to court at a later date.
You should take note that it is possible some person or persons unknown bounced up and down on the car to dislodge the permit. Who do you know that might benefit from such a jolly jape?
IAS appeals are evidence based so include as much as you can. Getting pics of the site and signage will help, but first, what happened when the keeper complained to the landowner and the owner of the holiday rental cottage?
Also, was the NTK PoFA compliant?

You should also complain to your MP.

Most important, IAS appeal codes normally only last 21 days, so if you are going to appeal, you need to submit it tomorrow at the latest.

Coupon-mad

Don't do your appeal.  Please read the NEWBIES thread first.

puk999

Fruitcake said:

Don't write to the PPC again, and as for the no loss point, that went out the window in the Beavis case nearly seven years ago.

Noted, thanks.

Fruitcake said:

You should take note that it is possible some person or persons unknown bounced up and down on the car to dislodge the permit. Who do you know that might benefit from such a jolly jape.
IAS appeals are evidence based so include as much as you can. Getting pics of the site and signage will help, but first, what happened when the keeper complained to the landowner and the owner of the holiday rental cottage?
Also, was the NTK PoFA compliant?

I really don't think the idea that someone could bounce up and down on the car to dislodge it near the pedals of the car (that area not captured in Armtrac's photographic evidence) is plausible so don't want to suggest that.

I don't have my own pictures of the signage at the site. I took a picture of the permit thinking that would be enough. I live a three hour drive away from the location.

I have not complained to the landowner (EDIT: I have since called the landowner and written them an email. They said they can't tell Armtrac to cancel PCNs but to send in an email anyway) and I have not complained to the holiday rental cottage owner. I certainly don't want to do the latter as this person is elderly, busy, and I don't want to load them with trying to fight my cause.

EDIT: Just wrote an email to my MP suggesting they might contact the landowner. Fat chance!!

I did not receive a NTK. I sent a written appeal to Armtrac identifying myself as the keeper and explaining about the valid permit, and that it had been dislodged during the wind. I was advised to do this on Pepipoo. Maybe I should've come here first and read the newbies thread, but too late now.

Fruitcake said:

Previously we had suggested that an IAS appeal is pointless, but now that advice has changed, even though the chances of a win are about 4%. It will show that you attempted to "narrow the issues" should this go to court at a later date.

<snip>

Most important, IAS appeal codes normally only last 21 days, so if you are going to appeal, you need to submit it tomorrow at the latest.

In Armtrac's rejection letter, it also says 21 days for IAS appeal, so I will appeal to them today then. EDIT: IAS appeal now sent.

puk999

Coupon-mad said:

Don't do your appeal.  Please read the NEWBIES thread first.

I have already written an appeal letter to Armtrac and received a response. When you say don't do your appeal, do you mean don't now appeal to the IAS? I have read the newbies thread. Sorry if I'm missing something from there.

Coupon-mad

No, I thought you meant you'd drafted it only, and we'd be in time to stop you.

You won't win at IAS but go thru the farce anyway.

I really don't think the idea that someone could bounce up and down on the car to dislodge it near the pedals of the car (that area not captured in Armtrac's photographic evidence) is plausible so don't want to suggest that.

Used to happen with clampers and Armtrac are a rogue ex-clamper.  Absolutely plausible from this bunch.  But not worth suggesting to  IAS as they are on the parking firm's side.

puk999

Coupon-mad said:

No, I thought you meant you'd drafted it only, and we'd be in time to stop you.

You won't win at IAS but go thru the farce anyway.

When IAS reject my appeal, I'm wondering what actual defence I have if this went to court.  There was no loss to them, but as people have stated, that's not grounds for defence. I didn't take pictures of the signage, but from the evidence provided by the parking company (fairly distant pics), the sign and T&Cs were there. I also know that the sign does have K.B.T. Cornwall LTD, not just the trading name of Armtrac on the sign.

Morally I shouldn't have to pay anything - there was a valid permit and no loss. I could go to court and plead on moral grounds, but won't I just be laughed out and incur more fines, travelling expenses and time?

fisherjim

puk999 said:

Coupon-mad said:

No, I thought you meant you'd drafted it only, and we'd be in time to stop you.

You won't win at IAS but go thru the farce anyway.

When IAS reject my appeal, I'm wondering what actual defence I have if this went to court.  There was no loss to them, but as people have stated, that's not grounds for defence. I didn't take pictures of the signage, but from the evidence provided by the parking company (fairly distant pics), the sign and T&Cs were there. I also know that the sign does have K.B.T. Cornwall LTD, not just the trading name of Armtrac on the sign.

Morally I shouldn't have to pay anything - there was a valid permit and no loss. I could go to court and plead on moral grounds, but won't I just be laughed out and incur more fines, travelling expenses and time?

What do you mean "I just be laughed out and incur more fines" you do not have a fine and you can't get any fines for defending you corner in court, so are you going to just let a bunch of scammers walk all over you and laugh all the way to the bank.

A judge might decide that there is no case to answer if you did all that the T&C's asked the fact that the permit was not fit for purpose is one thing to consider, the fact that the permit was on view somewhere etc etc.

The purpose of car park management is supposed to protect parking spaces for the use of the bona fide user, not to just make up as many obscure rules to catch out as many as possible for only one reason PPC's profit.

Coupon-mad

People win these cases all the time here. Circuit Judges have proven utterly clueless, but the day to day hearing District Judges appear to have seen enough of the parking industry.

puk999

Thanks for the responses so far. I'm not going to allow the bunch of scammers to walk all over me and am willing to take this to court. What I'm asking is this: if the court found in the favour of the parking company, what's a reasonable estimate of the bottom line I would have to pay the parking company? Could the penalty charge increase between now and the court date? What's a good estimate of the costs I would have to pay?

Fruitcake

It is not a penalty charge.

Properly defended you should win, but even if you lost it should cost you no more than about £175 - £200