My obsession with not buying in UK - Prove me wrong

RobHT

Slithery said:

MobileSaver said:
I just don't think that's true; as a tenant you will be reminded every six or twelve months that you have to agree to new terms if you want to stay in your property.

Not necessarily. I've been in my current rental for 5+ years now and have never been asked to sign a new tenancy or even had a rent increase.

Finally someone that has had experience with rent legally  
Did you rent with an agency? I would be surprised of the opposite.

Gycraig

RobHT said:

lookstraightahead said:

We are early fifties and probably just as well off as someone who has owned property all their lives. We now have a very small mortgage thanks to income from our own businesses. We moved location and work in a beautiful area, with no commute. We rented for ages and I'm glad we didn't throw our businesses down the drain just to tick the right boxes for a mortgage. 

Now nearly mortgage and rent free and work for ourselves.

you don't have to own a property to feel secure, but you do need to think about what security you do have in skills, investments, income etc. It does depend on your personality and life experiences and what you want in life.  Lots of people don't want to be at the beck and call of a landlord, we didn't want to be at the beck and call of an employer. 

We do keep our skills up to date and are constantly educating ourselves and upskilling. We are settled now, but our home is all around the world (with luck) not just on a little plot of land.

Finally someone that sees the business aspect of life as I see it.
So you are the one that would say also the following "you depend from your job, not from 4 walls and one roof, that ain't gonna provide any income" .

I'll also buy one day if it's convenient, as you did, but at a reasonable age and with most of the cash put down, which means very little mortgage.
My investments are gonna workout for me, in the meanwhile, I wait the next real estate market dip

“I wait the next real estate market dip” good luck with that strategy if your not happy with house prices now you probably won’t be when the “dip” happens. 

Also you mention you have been in your property for 2 years, so you have paid someone else’s mortgage off while they made a profit off you, while someone who bought when you started renting has probably pretty much doubled every penny they have put into the house. 

RobHT

MobileSaver said:

lookstraightahead said:

MobileSaver said:

lookstraightahead said:

MobileSaver said:

As I said there are always exceptions but I'm sure you accept that all other things being equal someone paying their own mortgage will be financially better off in most cases than someone paying their landlord's mortgage - how can it be any other way?

Property ownership per se may not be important to some people but family stability and security is important to practically everyone and owning your own property is one obvious way of achieving that.

Whether you are earning minimum wage or millions, being forced to leave your own home against your will be something most people would want to avoid at all costs so given a choice (and the millionaire is more likely to have that choice) it's pretty obvious why someone would want to own.

No I don't agree. I don't place such emphasis on property ownership in my life. Sorry 🤷‍♀️

And yet you own your own property...

they don't make me feel secure.

I think you must be using a different definition of "secure" to most other people; in the context of house buying and renting it is shorthand for "security of tenure". What do you mean by secure?

With home-ownership you have security of tenure, you know you can live in that same house in that same area for as long as you keep making your monthly mortgage payments. When renting you have no such security and, regardless of whether you wish to keep making monthly payments or not, if your landlord decides you have to move out then that's what you have to do. 

As has been said numerous times before, for most people being forced to move out of your long-term home is devastating so why anyone would choose to take that risk when they don't have to is beyond me.

Of course not everyone has that choice; some people will have to rent for lots of different reasons but when you do have the choice I'm struggling to understand why you would choose such a fundamental risk with your long-term home?

Probably you don't get it well.
If you lose your job, you lose your house too.

You won't be able to sustain such situation for the following reasons:
1. Assuming you are wealthy and you saved 6 months worth of expenses, but real expenses, not amounts coming from wrong calculations.
2. In order do not lose your home, you keep waiting, until is too late

3. At that point, you will be financially broken and also psychologically BROKEN.

4. The worth of you house didn't change as you expected. I'm pretty sure you would not want to give away your new ornaments, your beautiful brand new print and all the other works you did around the house, they ain't gonna give you more money, so what's gonna happen is that you will lose a big part of your equity plus the money invested in house, this is because...... I'll give you the exact example, take in consideration a crappy old house and a new one, or a renovated one, in UK they all have the same damn price! In the UK, the real estate market seems a war zone, from every point of view.
Then pay the lawyer, etc etc etc...
Don't forget to start paying rent if you don't wanna remain without a roof, usually this will be in the same month or 2 that you are busy selling the house, which means that you will spend much more than you have...

Nothing goes in the right direction in life mate, be ready to react and don't be safe with an house that is owned by the bank .
Btw, you are paying interests to the bank, 300k mortgage in 30y are 90k to the bank.
Do you think that 90k don't pay off the inflation for the rent?
Yes, it does.

Oh hold on, I need to live other 50y actually.
God thanks the stock market that allows me to gain 24/7 without moving a finger, unless when I need to make some fundamental analysis or technical for some risky speculation , that's a bit time demanding time to time.

For my additional pension, I'll make sure that it will sustain my life, but it's a 3rd party investment, not the State pension.
Before you invest, better it is, putting down a lump sum now of 30k for example, will ensure my pension! Check the curve of growth online at 6% annual compounding, adding just 100 each month.

	start principal	start balance	interest	end balance	end principal
1	$30,000.00	$30,000.00	$1,832.65	$33,032.65	$31,200.00
2	$31,200.00	$33,032.65	$2,014.61	$36,247.26	$32,400.00
3	$32,400.00	$36,247.26	$2,207.49	$39,654.75	$33,600.00
4	$33,600.00	$39,654.75	$2,411.93	$43,266.69	$34,800.00
5	$34,800.00	$43,266.69	$2,628.65	$47,095.35	$36,000.00
6	$36,000.00	$47,095.35	$2,858.37	$51,153.72	$37,200.00
7	$37,200.00	$51,153.72	$3,101.87	$55,455.60	$38,400.00
8	$38,400.00	$55,455.60	$3,359.98	$60,015.58	$39,600.00
9	$39,600.00	$60,015.58	$3,633.60	$64,849.17	$40,800.00
10	$40,800.00	$64,849.17	$3,923.60	$69,972.78	$42,000.00
11	$42,000.00	$69,972.78	$4,231.03	$75,403.79	$43,200.00
12	$43,200.00	$75,403.79	$4,556.88	$81,160.67	$44,400.00
13	$44,400.00	$81,160.67	$4,902.29	$87,262.97	$45,600.00
14	$45,600.00	$87,262.97	$5,268.44	$93,731.40	$46,800.00
15	$46,800.00	$93,731.40	$5,656.53	$100,587.94	$48,000.00
16	$48,000.00	$100,587.94	$6,067.94	$107,855.87	$49,200.00
17	$49,200.00	$107,855.87	$6,503.98	$115,559.87	$50,400.00
18	$50,400.00	$115,559.87	$6,966.25	$123,726.11	$51,600.00
19	$51,600.00	$123,726.11	$7,456.21	$132,382.33	$52,800.00
20	$52,800.00	$132,382.33	$7,975.58	$141,557.93	$54,000.00
21	$54,000.00	$141,557.93	$8,526.13	$151,284.06	$55,200.00
22	$55,200.00	$151,284.06	$9,109.69	$161,593.75	$56,400.00
23	$56,400.00	$161,593.75	$9,728.29	$172,522.03	$57,600.00
24	$57,600.00	$172,522.03	$10,383.97	$184,106.00	$58,800.00
25	$58,800.00	$184,106.00	$11,079.01	$196,385.02	$60,000.00
26	$60,000.00	$196,385.02	$11,815.74	$209,400.77	$61,200.00
27	$61,200.00	$209,400.77	$12,596.71	$223,197.47	$62,400.00
28	$62,400.00	$223,197.47	$13,424.48	$237,821.97	$63,600.00
29	$63,600.00	$237,821.97	$14,301.96	$253,323.94	$64,800.00
30	$64,800.00	$253,323.94	$15,232.11	$269,756.03	$66,000.00
31	$66,000.00	$269,756.03	$16,218.03	$287,174.05	$67,200.00
32	$67,200.00	$287,174.05	$17,263.06	$305,637.14	$68,400.00
33	$68,400.00	$305,637.14	$18,370.86	$325,208.02	$69,600.00
34	$69,600.00	$325,208.02	$19,545.13	$345,953.16	$70,800.00
35	$70,800.00	$345,953.16	$20,789.83	$367,943.00	$72,000.00

Without 100 monthly...

	start principal	start balance	interest	end balance	end principal
1	$30,000.00	$30,000.00	$1,800.01	$31,800.00	$30,000.00
2	$30,000.00	$31,800.00	$1,907.99	$33,708.00	$30,000.00
3	$30,000.00	$33,708.00	$2,022.48	$35,730.48	$30,000.00
4	$30,000.00	$35,730.48	$2,143.82	$37,874.31	$30,000.00
5	$30,000.00	$37,874.31	$2,272.47	$40,146.77	$30,000.00
6	$30,000.00	$40,146.77	$2,408.81	$42,555.57	$30,000.00
7	$30,000.00	$42,555.57	$2,553.33	$45,108.91	$30,000.00
8	$30,000.00	$45,108.91	$2,706.54	$47,815.44	$30,000.00
9	$30,000.00	$47,815.44	$2,868.91	$50,684.37	$30,000.00
10	$30,000.00	$50,684.37	$3,041.06	$53,725.43	$30,000.00
11	$30,000.00	$53,725.43	$3,223.51	$56,948.96	$30,000.00
12	$30,000.00	$56,948.96	$3,416.93	$60,365.89	$30,000.00
13	$30,000.00	$60,365.89	$3,621.95	$63,987.85	$30,000.00
14	$30,000.00	$63,987.85	$3,839.25	$67,827.12	$30,000.00
15	$30,000.00	$67,827.12	$4,069.64	$71,896.75	$30,000.00
16	$30,000.00	$71,896.75	$4,313.79	$76,210.55	$30,000.00
17	$30,000.00	$76,210.55	$4,572.63	$80,783.18	$30,000.00
18	$30,000.00	$80,783.18	$4,846.99	$85,630.17	$30,000.00
19	$30,000.00	$85,630.17	$5,137.82	$90,767.99	$30,000.00
20	$30,000.00	$90,767.99	$5,446.08	$96,214.06	$30,000.00
21	$30,000.00	$96,214.06	$5,772.86	$101,986.91	$30,000.00
22	$30,000.00	$101,986.91	$6,119.21	$108,106.12	$30,000.00
23	$30,000.00	$108,106.12	$6,486.36	$114,592.49	$30,000.00
24	$30,000.00	$114,592.49	$6,875.54	$121,468.04	$30,000.00
25	$30,000.00	$121,468.04	$7,288.07	$128,756.12	$30,000.00
26	$30,000.00	$128,756.12	$7,725.36	$136,481.49	$30,000.00
27	$30,000.00	$136,481.49	$8,188.88	$144,670.38	$30,000.00
28	$30,000.00	$144,670.38	$8,680.23	$153,350.60	$30,000.00
29	$30,000.00	$153,350.60	$9,201.05	$162,551.64	$30,000.00
30	$30,000.00	$162,551.64	$9,753.10	$172,304.74	$30,000.00
31	$30,000.00	$172,304.74	$10,338.28	$182,643.02	$30,000.00
32	$30,000.00	$182,643.02	$10,958.58	$193,601.60	$30,000.00
33	$30,000.00	$193,601.60	$11,616.09	$205,217.70	$30,000.00
34	$30,000.00	$205,217.70	$12,313.07	$217,530.76	$30,000.00
35	$30,000.00	$217,530.76	$13,051.84	$230,582.60	$30,000.00

This above is just the representation of an additional pension, then there is the compulsory (+ employer contribution) + the State Pension.

If I do all this in my youth, I've secured my future, I just need to do it now or at the next dip.
If I'll have enough cash, I'll evaluate to buy, we agree on that, but ain't gonna take a mortgage at 95% LTV and let the bank owning the house for 30-40y... I'll feel more robbed than a landlord asking for more money on my rent .

onylon

RobHT said:

Probably you don't get it well.
If you lose your job, you lose your house too.

Or you get another job, invest the redundancy money and come out considerably better off. It's not always doom and gloom.

AFF8879

RobHT 

Yes, no equity built, but I don't mind, I have space for savings, investments, additional pension, cryptos etc...

So basically gambling that people online are telling you is “investing”…?

MobileSaver

RobHT said:

MobileSaver said:

I just don't think that's true; as a tenant you will be reminded every six or twelve months that you have to agree to new terms if you want to stay in your property - I'm not sure that instils security when you know one day you might receive a S8 or S21 instead of an invitation to renew.

No, it doesn't work in that way. ... I politely reminded them that after 6 months, it would have been a rolling contract as stated in the contract

Of course, that's the one main advantage of renting but it's a double-edged sword - if you don't agree to new terms then the landlord can just give you two months notice that they want you to leave.

I'm still waiting for anyone to explain how the landlord being able to force you to leave your home against your will is security in any shape or form?

RobHT said:

Who cares about 4 walls which will become of a sad colour soon, smelly due to old carpets and full of problems .

Your rented home sounds more and more like a bedsit in an undesirable part of Edinburgh...

RobHT said:

that person you mentioned probably couldn't run his business from the location where he wanted or could purchase, simple.

Huh? My business was based on a business park in a vibrant greater London town and my home was in a desirable village 20 minutes away - both were perfect and I've no idea what point you were trying to make there?!?!

Sistergold

Just as a by the way real life example. In the last recession(Northern Rock 2008) straightaway my husband lost his job. Luckily our mortgage was such that you could withdraw with the click of the button any money paid towards capital. So if the original loan was £230k and balance was now £190k you could withdraw up to £40k to bring it back to original loan of £230k. Anyway as I was only one working from time to time if I was short of money to pay mortgage for instance I would withdraw necessary amounts of money from the mortgage to pay the mortgage or buy food or meet other direct debit. It was a tough 4yrs for us as a family(4 children) as was on one income. Not once did I need to talk to the bank about my mortgage and no we did not lose the house and no I did not need to miss payments despite not enough income. I could withdraw modest amounts to pay bills when I got desperate. 

There are so many different mortgage products to suit different people but I am not sure what products or arrangements there are in rental? 

Most homeowners and renters are sensible adults who know that you need to pay to stay. This again is not to say there will be no repossessions or evictions. Also repossession and evictions have been happening even without recession. Hard times do just hit sometimes I guess with what’s going on now hard times will be widespread. 

MobileSaver

RobHT said:

Probably you don't get it well.
If you lose your job, you lose your house too.

No, it's definitely you that doesn't get it and you are talking complete and utter nonsense yet again.

Over 500,000 people lost their jobs during the pandemic, less than 10,000 lost their house so 98% of those losing their job did NOT lose their house!

Obviously while completely true that figure is skewed by Covid laws so let's check the financial crash of 2008 as well; 728,000 people lost their jobs that year, only 40,000 homes were repossessed, so again even in the darkest of times, well over 90% of those losing their job did NOT lose their home. Obviously statistics can be presented in a multitude of ways but what is utterly undeniable is "If you lose your job, you lose your house too" is demonstrably untrue.

Yet again your assumptions and calculations are fundamentally flawed and I'm afraid if you carry on like this then you really are going to end up celebrating your 55th birthday alone in a bedsit in Edinburgh (complete with smelly carpets.)

If I were to offer some advice, it would be to stop trying to convince yourself that your decision not to buy was the right one and instead concentrate your efforts on finding a boyfriend or girlfriend. By reading this thread, deep down you must know by now that almost all your thinking was wrong but sometimes you still need someone you care about and who you trust to actually bring those subconscious thoughts to the fore so that you can act upon them.

jimbog

RobHT said:

MobileSaver said:

lookstraightahead said:

We are early fifties and probably just as well off as someone who has owned property all their lives.

While there are always exceptions, it's hard to see how that can be true for the vast majority of people.

All other things being equal, monthly rental payments will always be more than your own mortgage payments since your landlord won't get as competitive a rate as a home-owner and typically will be making a profit on top anyway. And of course after "renting for ages" it's the home-owner/landlord who will have benefited from HPI while you walk away with nothing.

lookstraightahead said:

We rented for ages and I'm glad we didn't throw our businesses down the drain just to tick the right boxes for a mortgage.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? I was running my own business when I took out the mortgage that I paid off 15 years later.

lookstraightahead said:

you don't have to own a property to feel secure, ... Lots of people don't want to be at the beck and call of a landlord, we didn't want to be at the beck and call of an employer.

I just don't think that's true; as a tenant you will be reminded every six or twelve months that you have to agree to new terms if you want to stay in your property - I'm not sure that instils security when you know one day you might receive a S8 or S21 instead of an invitation to renew.

Yes, no equity built, but I don't mind

I'm not convinced about that. Your proliferation of posts on the subject suggests otherwise  

Elliott.T123

I think we can all agree from a financial position only buying beats renting over a long period of time for 99% of people.
Yes there are situations where it doesn't and if you are a very conservative individual who is scared of any form of risk then buying a house is not for you.

From this thread I think we can make a fair assumption that RobHT is very risk averse, he has mentioned he has a fairly high income and high level of savings but is still worried about the risk of losing his house if he were to buy it. This leads me to assume either he is in a career that has a very high turn over rate, is unwilling to take on lower paid work if he were to lose his job or is risk averse.

So rather than trying to convince him that his obsession with not buying is incorrect I think we should be saying that in 99% of situations people should buy (if only looking at it financially) but in his particular situation no he should not buy as emotionally it is the wrong choice for him personally.