Petition for fuel cost reduction

MattMattMattUK

TooManyPoints said:

Could always think the unthinkable and spend a little less. 

We could, but we currently have the lowest tax take and expenditure of any major European nation, education, healthcare, social care are all underfunded by the standards of almost all comparable nations. The chances are that people want to cut different things, increase different taxes etc. Many people tend to choose to cut things that will not impact them, raise taxes that they do not pay, or raise taxes on those who earn more than them, very few people say they support raising taxes that they themselves pay, or cutting services that they themselves use. 

TooManyPoints said:
 For example, the UK has an "Overseas Development" budget (aka Foreign Aid). Some of this is going to China (the second largest economy in the world) and India (which can afford its own space programme). Both of these countries are providing tacit assistance to Russia. So, we provide aid to China and India, they in turn provide assistance to help the Russian onslaught in Ukraine, the Ukrainian people have to up sticks to get away from that, some of them make their way here and the UK government has to pay £350 a month to people who let them live in their spare rooms (not to mention the benefits and costs of services they are eligible for upon arrival). The last time I looked this "Overseas Development" (a misnomer if ever there was one) cost the country £14bn.pa.

The last year the figures are audited for was 2020/2021 and stood at £10.4 billion, which works out at a cost of less than a pound a day per household in the UK over the course of the year. Most of this money is also not spent in China or India and in the cases where it has been analysed it as been used to grow business ties between the UK and those countries, with a beneficial ROI for the UK treasury. 

MattMattMattUK

iwb100 said:

Why do people consider the UK economy as though it’s a household economy? We don’t have to repay borrowing. We just keep borrowing. Public sector debt has risen every single year for about 15 years plus consecutively. Indeed I think we’ve only had a surplus for about 3 years in the last three decades. A household has fixed income whereas an economy does not and spending cuts lower the income so it’s simply not analogous. 

It is not a household budget, but it does also need to balance in some way, historically that equation has used inflation and economic growth to manage the increase in debt repayment costs, however the last two decades the growth in debt has far outstripped the economic growth and the erosion of debt by inflation. That means that the cost of servicing the debt, which is far more important than the headline debt figure, has risen considerably, this has resulted in a need to both constrain spending and further accellerated the growth in debt repayment costs, we then had an even bigger surge because of the response to Covid and now while the borrowing has slowed the repayment costs continue to increase, both in direct monetary terms and as a percentage of GDP, tax revenues and government expenditure. 

iwb100 said:

So as a country we continue to spend way on excess of GDP yet none of that spending improves lives. That’s the scandal for me. We aren’t spending money to make people have better lives. It’s mental when you think about it. 

We are spending money to make people's lives better as if we did not spend the money, on pensions, on benefits, on education, healthcare, on social provision, on a functioning transport network etc. without spending on all those things people's lives would be a lot worse. 

Thrugelmir

TooManyPoints said:

The UK is presumably paying some interest costs on borrowing even if it's tiny.

The government is currently paying around 2% pa to service this debt

We all pay this interest not the Government. We do seem to live currently in a world where somebody else pays and money simply grows on trees .......

MattMattMattUK

Thrugelmir said:

TooManyPoints said:

The UK is presumably paying some interest costs on borrowing even if it's tiny.

The government is currently paying around 2% pa to service this debt

We all pay this interest not the Government. We do seem to live currently in a world where somebody else pays and money simply grows on trees .......

That is the problem in the UK, nearly everyone wants someone else to pay, very few people seem to be prepared to pay themselves, this seems to be a fundamental difference between the UK and most other European nations. 

iwb100

Car_54 said:

iwb100 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

A lot of these petitions seem to me to be ill-thought-out.  Don't get me wrong, as a motorist who has little choice but to use a car, due to living in a rural location with little to no public transport, I hate the current price of petrol as much as anyone else.  Hopefully things are showing some signs of easing on that front - fingers crossed.  And yes, the motorist is often seen as an "easy target" for taxation.

But the government gets millions (billions?) in revenue from fuel duty.  If it takes a 40% cut on that income, where is the shortfall going to come from?  I don't know the figures, but I'm willing to bet that the whole Covid thing has cost a pretty penny, and that's got to be repaid somehow, on top of all the usual spending.

Of course I'd like to pay zero tax, wouldn't we all.  But realistically, "running the country" has to be paid for.

Not meaning to argue with you - but it's worthing sparing a few minutes to think through the wider implications of things like this, rather than just giving a knee-jerk reaction to the headline statement.

Discuss .......  

Why do people consider the UK economy as though it’s a household economy? We don’t have to repay borrowing. We just keep borrowing. Public sector debt has risen every single year for about 15 years plus consecutively. Indeed I think we’ve only had a surplus for about 3 years in the last three decades. A household has fixed income whereas an economy does not and spending cuts lower the income so it’s simply not analogous. 

So as a country we continue to spend way on excess of GDP yet none of that spending improves lives. That’s the scandal for me. We aren’t spending money to make people have better lives. It’s mental when you think about it. 

So, spending on NHS, care, education, policing etc. doesn't improve people's lives?

If it wasn't for state spending on education I'd have been illiterate. And without the NHS I'd be dead.

Yes of course. But in the last decade or so the quality of those services has reduced yet our debts still rise. I get where we are and the factors involved but comparably our spend is high yet the outcome not so good especially compared to much of Europe and Asia. 

MattMattMattUK

iwb100 said:

Car_54 said:

iwb100 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

A lot of these petitions seem to me to be ill-thought-out.  Don't get me wrong, as a motorist who has little choice but to use a car, due to living in a rural location with little to no public transport, I hate the current price of petrol as much as anyone else.  Hopefully things are showing some signs of easing on that front - fingers crossed.  And yes, the motorist is often seen as an "easy target" for taxation.

But the government gets millions (billions?) in revenue from fuel duty.  If it takes a 40% cut on that income, where is the shortfall going to come from?  I don't know the figures, but I'm willing to bet that the whole Covid thing has cost a pretty penny, and that's got to be repaid somehow, on top of all the usual spending.

Of course I'd like to pay zero tax, wouldn't we all.  But realistically, "running the country" has to be paid for.

Not meaning to argue with you - but it's worthing sparing a few minutes to think through the wider implications of things like this, rather than just giving a knee-jerk reaction to the headline statement.

Discuss .......  

Why do people consider the UK economy as though it’s a household economy? We don’t have to repay borrowing. We just keep borrowing. Public sector debt has risen every single year for about 15 years plus consecutively. Indeed I think we’ve only had a surplus for about 3 years in the last three decades. A household has fixed income whereas an economy does not and spending cuts lower the income so it’s simply not analogous. 

So as a country we continue to spend way on excess of GDP yet none of that spending improves lives. That’s the scandal for me. We aren’t spending money to make people have better lives. It’s mental when you think about it. 

So, spending on NHS, care, education, policing etc. doesn't improve people's lives?

If it wasn't for state spending on education I'd have been illiterate. And without the NHS I'd be dead.

Yes of course. But in the last decade or so the quality of those services has reduced yet our debts still rise. I get where we are and the factors involved but comparably our spend is high yet the outcome not so good especially compared to much of Europe and Asia. 

Compared to much of Europe we pay very low taxes, the bottom two thirds of earners in the UK have the lowest level of income taxation in the EU (the top third has the sixth highest), we have a lower rate of VAT than most of Europe, with far more exemptions, we contribute less to our health systems (much of Europe has compulsory health insurance in a dual system with state provision) and we have more economically inactive people than other comparable economies (France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries). We do not have a comparatively high spend, compared to the rest of Europe we spend less than pretty much all of them on health, education, social provisions, transport, pensions etc.

born_again

lemondrops69 said:

TBH the rise in fuel costs doesnt really effect me as I only ever put in £20 

Given I live no where near London. I've seen my 1st £2.00 ltr price today. This in a well used suburb of a major city. So is a well used petrol station (well was previously).

So you are going to be getting less & less miles per £20 👀

Herzlos

MattMattMattUK said:

Thrugelmir said:

TooManyPoints said:

The UK is presumably paying some interest costs on borrowing even if it's tiny.

The government is currently paying around 2% pa to service this debt

We all pay this interest not the Government. We do seem to live currently in a world where somebody else pays and money simply grows on trees .......

That is the problem in the UK, nearly everyone wants someone else to pay, very few people seem to be prepared to pay themselves, this seems to be a fundamental difference between the UK and most other European nations. 

I think a lot of people would be happy to pay a bit more, as long as it wasn't being wasted. Like all the money blown on dodgy PPE contracts, stuff like ferry companies with no ferries, subsidized Parliamentary bar, that guy renovating a duck house on expenses and so on.

Up here, we pay a bit more tax and I'm fine with that because it at least seems to be getting spent a little bit better.

Thrugelmir

Herzlos said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Thrugelmir said:

TooManyPoints said:

The UK is presumably paying some interest costs on borrowing even if it's tiny.

The government is currently paying around 2% pa to service this debt

We all pay this interest not the Government. We do seem to live currently in a world where somebody else pays and money simply grows on trees .......

That is the problem in the UK, nearly everyone wants someone else to pay, very few people seem to be prepared to pay themselves, this seems to be a fundamental difference between the UK and most other European nations. 

I think a lot of people would be happy to pay a bit more, as long as it wasn't being wasted. Like all the money blown on dodgy PPE contracts, stuff like ferry companies with no ferries, subsidized Parliamentary bar, that guy renovating a duck house on expenses and so on.

Stand as an independent MP and promote your ideas. 

Herzlos

Thrugelmir said:

Herzlos said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Thrugelmir said:

TooManyPoints said:

The UK is presumably paying some interest costs on borrowing even if it's tiny.

The government is currently paying around 2% pa to service this debt

We all pay this interest not the Government. We do seem to live currently in a world where somebody else pays and money simply grows on trees .......

That is the problem in the UK, nearly everyone wants someone else to pay, very few people seem to be prepared to pay themselves, this seems to be a fundamental difference between the UK and most other European nations. 

I think a lot of people would be happy to pay a bit more, as long as it wasn't being wasted. Like all the money blown on dodgy PPE contracts, stuff like ferry companies with no ferries, subsidized Parliamentary bar, that guy renovating a duck house on expenses and so on.

Stand as an independent MP and promote your ideas. 

My MP is already lefty enough, just not from a party with enough sway to do anything