Letter Before Claim received - from VCS, acting for Excel Parking Services

BelladonnaTook

Looks like someone forgot to remove this sign too - its in one of the Permit Holders only car parks. A gym member who parked in the 'free' car park, would already be near the gym (on foot) and would not walk through this permit only car park to get there.

BelladonnaTook

Surprised that gym is still open. The inadequate parking signage must surely have put a large dent in the membership.

Coupon-mad

That first forbidding sign also threatens towing away of cars, which has been illegal under the POFA for a decade!

BelladonnaTook

Coupon-mad said:

That first forbidding sign also threatens towing away of cars, which has been illegal under the POFA for a decade!

Yes. Adds to the confusion doesn't it?
Begs the question as to why the outdated signs are still there. 
Most of the recently installed signs at this multi car park site, don't appear to have planning or advertisement permission and are inadequate and confusing.  
And whilst the APNR on the other entrance several roads away out of sight, (and unknown to those unfamiliar with area) has planning permission, the one at the entrance nearest the gym, does not.
That is the same one next to a sign that you cannot read until its too late anyway because you cannot safely reverse. To turn safely and leave the site means going past the camera snap snap.. 
Not saying that it is suspicious or that there's any collusion of course. 

StJohn81

Amazing research, thanks for all these messages and photos. I'm just getting back on this after a death in the family. Have a few days to do my defence. All this should be helpful.

StJohn81

BelladonnaTook said:

Coupon-mad said:

That first forbidding sign also threatens towing away of cars, which has been illegal under the POFA for a decade!

Yes. Adds to the confusion doesn't it?
Begs the question as to why the outdated signs are still there. 
Most of the recently installed signs at this multi car park site, don't appear to have planning or advertisement permission and are inadequate and confusing.  
And whilst the APNR on the other entrance several roads away out of sight, (and unknown to those unfamiliar with area) has planning permission, the one at the entrance nearest the gym, does not.
That is the same one next to a sign that you cannot read until its too late anyway because you cannot safely reverse. To turn safely and leave the site means going past the camera snap snap.. 
Not saying that it is suspicious or that there's any collusion of course. 

Thanks again for all this.

Have you had your own claim with it all?

StJohn81

Defence being constructed. Here is my box 3. I'm guessing a lot of this may not be needed, as in the parts about speaking to the gym staff afterwards, going back to check signage etc, but I just want to be sure. Any feedback greatly appreciated!

3. [EXPLAIN IN YOUR OWN WORDS...] 
On the night in question I parked in the car park whilst making use of the gym directly in front of the bays, being a gym member.
This was following a sign up process that included the promise of free parking right outside the gym.
My common sense and choice told me that the bays nearest the gym, when accessed from the entrance nearest to the gym, were the ones I should use, and also the ones I would like to make most use of seen as they are nearest. It also made sense knowing that the bays elsewhere in this car park were also free to park. I had no reason to think that the parking bays for entering the gym would be chargeable, and I had no idea from any relevant signage that this was the case. I attended the gym at evening time and the signs are not visible in the dark.

Since the claim for parking charge was made and I understood the bays in question to be chargeable, I contacted the gym straight away. I complained to them via email about why I had been charged and why this situation is in existence and surely others are having the same problem. It was clear from the first conversation that indeed many others have had the problem, including staff who started there. They had a process already in place for me to send in details, due to me not being the only case.

Also since the claim I have been back to the car park and checked the signage which is still dubious and doesn’t appear to meet regulations.

You cannot see any distinction between paying and non paying bays in the retail park, unless you go looking on foot throughout the car park. The free bays are for The Range and The Gym, but seem to be in another area than the bays in front of The Gym. It almost seems like entrapment. Coming into car park from ************ it is only possible to park in the bays in question. They are the first and nearest ones. The signs for the free parking also look exactly like the pay ones unless you walk up close to see the difference.

Coupon-mad

What do you mean they had a process already in place to send details? To cancel a PCN? But you didn't state that nor that the gym want it cancelled (fair to say they do, because they won't want to alienate members).

Add that in.

Change all your first person to the third person, obviously.  You've surely noticed the template is written as 'the Defendant did this/that'.

And of course you know to edit para 2 to add 'and driver' because the Template Defence tells you that.

I presume you will remove my commentary?!
 [EXPLAIN IN YOUR OWN WORDS...]  

BelladonnaTook

Basically, the signage at LIP is dire. There are not enough, the few they have are misleading, conflicting, mostly illegible etc. There are no signs at entrances of various car parks within the LIP site.

Single signs at main LIP entrances are useless as the car parks/ parking areas are all different with different Terms.& Conditions. Some are free for limited periods (not just the retail spaces), some are permit only but VCS signs near main LIP entrances don't recognise this.

I found only one of the actual car parks had a sign at the entrance. Most entrances to the actual car parks/parking areas have no signs or separate ANPR. . 

Old LIP parking signs (forbidding and mention removal of vehicles) are still up and contradict the inadequate VCS signs (which all appear to have have PCN on them in large letters too)

The free (time limited) retail signs look like each other and most of the (newly installed since at least July 2021) permit-only signs of which there are far too few and are not prominent, cannot be read from a parked car.

I haven't seen any authority from landowner to VCS, only one of the ANPR cameras at main site entrances appears to have planning permission and I found no advertisement consent for any of the inadequate VCS signs.
For starters...

Oh yes and the single (permit-only) parking sign (despite the site having multiple car parks that are not all permit-only)  at the entrance via Digital Way, welcomes you to a 'Car Park' when you are not actually in,or near the entrance of a car park yet - 
and declares that if you drive past their sign, you agree to their Terms (which they invite you to read inside 'the' car park..?).

They don't even tell you what they mean by 'the' car park; which one it is or where it is. Not that you can find 'the' car park to read their T & C, without being forced to drive past their sign in which case they say you've agreed anyway.

Oh wait... you could leave you car where it is to go on foot, looking for 'the' car park to read whatever the T&C say. It doesn't matter that you'll be blocking the way and every car behind you will have to squeeze past your abandoned car meaning they have no chance of reading the VCS sign - and will get snapped by ANPR and 'agree' to pay £100 if they are not a permit holder. Even though the LIP site is not a permit-holders car park. Hmmm.

But if you decide not to go on foot to seek 'the' mystery car park as you don't want to get in every other driver's way, so you do drive past the sign, not knowing what those Terms are because they are in 'the' mystery car park -  the ANPR snaps you.

Fair enough (not) but if you decide to leave without reaching any car park/parking area within the site, due to the  despotic VCS sign... you cant actually do so safely, without driving past their sign and the ANPR to turn round.  Hmmm.....

So yes, I suppose some people might call that entrapment.

BelladonnaTook

I meant "The free (time limited) retail signs and the permit-only' look like each other.."