Elderly MIL

ChloeMurphy1

Hi

My mother in law rang me earlier today to tell me that her grandson had been stealing from her.  She said that her grandson had visited her a few weeks ago but she had only just had her bank statements through in the past.  On the bank statements were two ATM transactions, one each for each of her bank accounts which totalled around £400.
Before I go on, my MIL likes to keep a stash of money in the house which she uses to pay the local gardener/egg delivery man/window cleaner/chimney sweep etc so when we have previously visited she has asked us to take her to the bank so she can withdraw a similar amount from each account.

I asked how her grandson (Tom) had got hold of her card and she said Tom had asked for it for a telephone number from the back of the card, she had given Tom the card for a moment, he had made a note of the number in her presence and given her the card straight back.  I asked about her PIN numbers, she didn't know what they were even though I tried to explain, she just kept mentioning the long card number on the debit card. She then went on to ask if Tom had been able to use a dummy (blank) card to get the money out.  I said no and tried to convince her that he had not stolen from her (I genuinely don't think he has), it sounds to me like she must have asked him to withdraw the money for her and she has just forgotten (she is 95).

I asked her what she wanted me to do, she said she didn't want anyone else to know as she didn't want the stress of a family rift so I said I would forget it.

Now this is the part I am concerned about, I regularly purchase things for my MIL online at her request as she is unable to travel far due to mobility problems, from slippers and electric blankets and clothing to groceries getting delivered from Asda or Waitrose.  I usually just use her card to order the items and as she is usually on the ball I haven't been concerned previously but now with what has happened and the additional security measures for online card purchases, I am going to have to pay for her items and she either pay me back or give me a lump sum which I use bit by bit and let her know when I need that topping up.

I don't want to be the one she is accusing of stealing next, how can I protect myself? Is it just a matter of keeping detailed records of her online purchases and a spreadsheet of the cheque numbers etc and dates, is that enough do you think?

Just to add, I haven't mentioned an LPA above as she really wouldn't want that.

Pollycat

ChloeMurphy1 said:

Hi

My mother in law rang me earlier today to tell me that her grandson had been stealing from her.  She said that her grandson had visited her a few weeks ago but she had only just had her bank statements through in the past.  On the bank statements were two ATM transactions, one each for each of her bank accounts which totalled around £400.
Before I go on, my MIL likes to keep a stash of money in the house which she uses to pay the local gardener/egg delivery man/window cleaner/chimney sweep etc so when we have previously visited she has asked us to take her to the bank so she can withdraw a similar amount from each account.

I asked how her grandson (Tom) had got hold of her card and she said Tom had asked for it for a telephone number from the back of the card, she had given Tom the card for a moment, he had made a note of the number in her presence and given her the card straight back.  I asked about her PIN numbers, she didn't know what they were even though I tried to explain, she just kept mentioning the long card number on the debit card. She then went on to ask if Tom had been able to use a dummy (blank) card to get the money out.  I said no and tried to convince her that he had not stolen from her (I genuinely don't think he has), it sounds to me like she must have asked him to withdraw the money for her and she has just forgotten (she is 95).

I asked her what she wanted me to do, she said she didn't want anyone else to know as she didn't want the stress of a family rift so I said I would forget it.

Now this is the part I am concerned about, I regularly purchase things for my MIL online at her request as she is unable to travel far due to mobility problems, from slippers and electric blankets and clothing to groceries getting delivered from Asda or Waitrose.  I usually just use her card to order the items and as she is usually on the ball I haven't been concerned previously but now with what has happened and the additional security measures for online card purchases, I am going to have to pay for her items and she either pay me back or give me a lump sum which I use bit by bit and let her know when I need that topping up.

I don't want to be the one she is accusing of stealing next, how can I protect myself? Is it just a matter of keeping detailed records of her online purchases and a spreadsheet of the cheque numbers etc and dates, is that enough do you think?

Just to add, I haven't mentioned an LPA above as she really wouldn't want that.

My sister had a card with her own name on it attached to Mum's bank account so could use it to buy items.
IIRC, it was a bit of a faff regarding (understandable) anti fraud requirements but may be worth looking into.

Regarding LPA - why wouldn't she want that?
If she loses capacity, you would need to go down the Court of Protection route and that is much more expensive and lengthy than LPA.
Does she understand what LPA actually is?

tacpot12

For the money to have be taken from an ATM, someone needed to have the PIN number for the card. 

I think you/she needs to arrange for a new PIN number to be set on the card (or a new card issued) asap, if this has not already been done.  

I think you need a conversation with the grandson about NOT asking about or touching any new card. This is for his protection, so that she cannot accuse him of anything in future. 

I think I would also ask the grandson to show me his call log on his phone. Asking for the customer service number off the back of his gran's card is very suspicious. If he called them about a problem on his account, fair enough, but if he didn't, I think he may well be guilty of taking the money. This is a very unpleasant situation to have to deal with, but I think you need to let him know that his actions are suspicious, and that he needs to avoid having any dealings with his gran's money in future.

As to protecting yourself, I think paying for her purchases yourself, keeping a log and asking her for the money is a better system, but you run the risk that she thinks she has already given you cash for a purchase when you first ask for it.  Having a lump sum and keeping a log of how it is spent runs the risk of her forgetting the purchases that she has asked for and that you have recorded. She might decide they are phantom purchases. Ultimately, there is not much you can do to protect yourself other than to involve your husband as a witness to all transactions. With two of you actively involved, you have his word against the word of his 95 yo mother. 

I would also suggest talking to her about a LPA. She  might not want one now, but you need to talk to her about the possiblity that if something like a stroke happens, or dementia sets in, she would need someone to be able to access her money for her. If you talk about it being a far off and nebulous eventuality, she might see the  sense in it. She will know friends who have had problems with dementia.

Flugelhorn

I would be very doubtful that he could have got the money out of the bank without the PIN and unless he had found that lying around somewhere ??? then all sounds a bit strange. 

Buying things for someone else and then taking money out of a lump sum is tricky for all the reasons above - they may think you are over spending / buying things for yourself - paranoia / forgetfulness / confusion can all be part of slight dementia 

74jax

What are her reasons for no lpa? 
If she is asking you to sort things out for her now, when she has capacity, why would she not want to know that you will do the same when she can't ask.
Does she understand what it is do you think?
It makes everything so much easier for you, maybe if you explain that part. 

pollypenny

My aunt was able to give her cleaner and friend a card loaded with £300 which was then used to do shopping for her. 

Could be worth speaking to your MIL and the bank to arrange that. 

sallysaver

I think it would be a good idea to see her bank statements.  You write that Tom only had access to one card for a telephone number, so if there has been an amount taken from b o th the accounts, this is just not possible.  On the statements it should have the date, time & place where the ATM was used and this, perhaps, will give a better understanding.  MIL could be reading it incorrectly although you state she is 'switched on'  but doesn't know what her pin number is.  The card wasn't removed from MIL'S home or so she informs you, so it hasn't been near an ATM machine.   It's a strange one for sure.

Savvy_Sue

You would be surprised - or possibly not - how many people use some form of their birthday for the PIN. And also how many elderly people give their PIN to their nearest and dearest when they are out and about just to avoid faffing about with the card machine. With my late mother and now my MIL, the card is given to a fitter younger person to make the payment, while they find somewhere to sit down. Even with the larger payment limit for contactless payments, they STILL make sure everyone knows the PIN, in case it's THAT time when the Contactless option doesn't work. 

Of the options mentioned above,

• LPA would be well worth pursuing, because if MIL loses capacity then the alternative (deputyship) is long drawn out and expensive. 
• A prepayment card is fairly easy to arrange, but I don't know how easy it is to top them up if you don't 'do' online banking.
• And adding someone to a bank account is relatively straightforward without it becoming a joint account - or it used to be: for some time I was named on a friend's account as he was abroad. I received a copy of his bank statements and could make payments, eg pay for repairs for his tenants if anything went wrong at his house. 

When you next see MIL, will it be possible to work out whether her stash of cash is about what you'd expect, given when cash was last withdrawn from her bank? 

sheramber

Does  your MIL have a debit card for each account?

When I have withdrawn money in the branch I have still had to put my PIN in the card machine. Has your  MIL not had to do that to withdraw money?

ChloeMurphy1

Hello

Thank you for all your replies they are all appreciated.

I don't want to go into too much detail as to why she wouldn't want an LPA for fear of this thread identifying myself.

Also someone suggested that I speak to the grandson to protect him, if I do that then I will be protecting him but the fallout will impact on my relationship with my MIL as she has sworn me to secrecy so I'm reluctant to do that.

Yes I did think about the 2 debit cards for different accounts (Santander and Lloyds), apparently the grandson asked for the Lloyds card to get the number off the back and gave the card straight back to my MIL so it's even more impossible that he could have withdrawn money from her Santander account.

As I said my MIL is fairly on the ball and she had already contacted her bank to cancel the cards and request new ones before speaking to me.

99.99% of the orders I do for her are online so I will have email order confirmations for any queries and I will just have to make sure that I log everything well so it doesn't come back to me.

Thanks for all your help.

Chloe

elsien

How is she withdrawing money from the bank without using her PIN number?